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Author Topic: Gods and Evolution  (Read 10149 times)
veggiewolf
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« Reply #15: November 18, 2010, 01:12:14 pm »

Then the next question would be where did the deity or deities come from?

Well, to quote John 1:1...
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In the Beginning was the Word.  And the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Perhaps Deity was there already?
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« Reply #16: November 22, 2010, 04:23:13 pm »

Well, to quote John 1:1...
Perhaps Deity was there already?
I think that I'm not sure if "before" really makes sense when talking about the Big Bang.  If I'm not mistaken, "time" really is very difficult to make any sense of when all the matter in the universe is compressed into no space at all.  I'm not quite sure what quantum theory says about this situation, but things would be extremely odd, probably utterly unintuitive and I suspect all our concepts based on everyday reality would break down in trying to analyse this environment.

I think deities and spirit are really talking about a different modality of reality and are unlikely to be reducible to fundamental physics, in the same way a painting doesn't reduce to the pigments and canvas, music doesn't reduce to rhythm, melody, harmony and volume.  Many people seek God in the organisation of the components of a thing (the system - interestingly enough I learned very recently that Aristotle wrote something along these lines himself) but I find myself asking if a system has flavour or beauty.  I think Spirit lies in the mystery of experience itself and therefore it or its potential must have been there always.  Perhaps it is the prime motivator, the force behind creation - but we have no way to know other than our experience.
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« Reply #17: November 27, 2010, 11:48:17 pm »

A few questions came to mind during my biology lesson on evolution today. For those of you who believe in/work with/worship (etc) Gods, what is your take on the theory of evolution/the big bang theory, etc? In my own mind, I'm not sure what I think. To me, the whole concept of evolution and our beginnings seems logical. I struggle to fit my Gods into that, however. Are they younger than the Earth? Older? Or just older/younger than ourselves? The creative force, or created by a force that started the Earth in the first place? And at the end of the day, does it really matter? This may not make much sense, I'm still trying to work it out in my mind as well. It would just be interesting to hear a few thoughts.

Actually, one of the things that first endeared me to Slavic folklore was the creation story. There are a number of variations, since it must have survived orally for ages, but tales from Russia to Slovenia talk about a creator creating man from sweat that falls from his brow as he works, or from a towel or water that he washes his body with. In one Russian case, a second party discovers this towel and uses it to help fashion a human out of. I tend to see us as a byproduct of creation, which is perfectly compatible with evolution.
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« Reply #18: November 28, 2010, 10:51:52 am »

There's no reason a deity or deities could not have been involved even with the Big Bang. They might not have been required for the universe to come into existence, but there is certainly nothing in the Standard Theory (aka the Big Bang/Inflation theory) that would rule them out.


I lean towards heathenry, and tend to see creation and evolution in this scope (or at least my understanding of it). I believe that all things were created organically, including the gods, and as they were created the gods then set about putting things in order.

I also believe in the theory of evolution and think that as homosapiens evolved they remained animalistic. It wasn't until the gods came and breathed a divine spark in these sub-ape species that we became human with soul, creativity, passion, questions, etc. 
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« Reply #19: December 22, 2010, 05:04:46 pm »

I just posted my more poetic answer to that over in the Creation thread (specifically at http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=14000.0;p=6)

But:

- I believe everything begins with the primal ocean and the spark of lightning that made life form. (Or whatever that trigger was: I like lightning.)

- From that, the physical grows - but so do the spirits of those things. Of those elemental forces, of the things that swim, and crawl and walk and fly.

- And eventually, some of those spirits gain more and more distinct personality and story and narrative of their own (these become gods, and other beings with a clear personality). Some of those grow over time, some fade. And all through that, you have the spirits of the land, and the things alive on the land (and the ocean, and so on).

This means that the Gods are younger than the earth, but how much younger depends on what they associate with, for example: gods of the ocean as ocean would precede, say, gods of agriculture (who would probably predate a god of sailing, and so on and so forth.)

It mostly doesn't matter to me in any practical sense, but I wrote it up as an assignment for my 3rd degree work, and ever since keep circling back to the lightning setting the ocean afire image.

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« Reply #20: December 23, 2010, 04:09:33 am »



Not a creationist of any flavour, rather a panentheist. That said, I think the issue is of great importance, as it frames so many people's understanding of the reality in which they find/manifest themselves. I find myself attracted greatly to Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's assertions on evolution (see Phenomenon of Man). In short, he argued that evolution is in the direction of increasing complexification and that consciousness arises from certain kinds of complexity. Essentially, that the universe is evolving in the direction of self-aware consciousness (and I sometimes believe that it has reached that point, certainly (to my mind) that it is conscious if not self aware). Similarly, I find Fritjov Capra's exploration of these themes (along with those of Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela) quite compelling. In short, for me, evolution is the ongoing becoming of deity.
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« Reply #21: December 23, 2010, 06:50:32 am »




Guardian Angels are the key factor to consider here. IMO anyway.  Wink

Untold thousands of people have testified to the intervention of guardian angels in their lives.  Yet there seems to be no scientific proof of their existence.  Throughout the entire world, and through the ages, mankind has discovered and acknowledged the presence of benevolent spirits.  These spirits interfere with the natural order of life, changing the destiny of those they protect. 

Science tells us that there are quite a number of fortunate circumstances that led to this planet having the ability to sustain life.  I wish that the scientists would abandon their prejudice against the possibility of outside involvement, and simply accept the testimony of so many people!  Just like any of the rules of physics, what we see happening today most probably also happened in the same manner back through the history of our planet.  If angels are guiding our lives today, messing with chance and Natural Selection as they see fit, then most likely they did so many years ago, before Man evolved as a species.


Though the question of angelic origins does play a part.  Where do they come from?  I can see a certain connection between spirit and physical matter.  It's rather animistic I suppose.  For some reason the two go hand in hand.  There are spirits in most living things, and spirit in the rocks and inanimate objects as well.  The types of spirits vary greatly between the physical matter inhabited too.   I'm not sure what spirit matter is, but it seems to have a strong association with the physical.

Gods and angelic beings are more highly evolved than the spirit beings that inhabit physical life forms.  It makes sense then to assume that there could be a progression there, where spirit evolves to a point of no longer needing a connection to physical matter.  This is a part of my spirituality, the anticipation that I most probably will be taking that step once my life here is over.  But even so, the gods themselves are still connected to the physical world in how they work with us.  Just their detachment from it is greater than ours; just like ours is greater than perhaps a spirit of a rock.

Rewind time once again, and we can see that perhaps all intelligent spirit matter was at one time not so intelligent.  Perhaps like the formless chaos that followed the Big Bang, before there were stars or galaxies, Spirit was no more defined.  Then, over vast amounts of time, Spirit began to coalesce as the physical matter it clung to did the same.  Several billion years of churning and burning as a star may have been enough for some spirits to remain intact even after the star went nova and exploded.  And thus the first gods were born. 

There seems to be some value to spiritual knowledge, in that it tends to cause spiritual development.  Smiley  In which case, the gods seem to know how to reproduce others like themselves.  This being the point of spirituality, it stands to reason that the advantageous circumstances that led us to intelligent human life, are part of an elaborate plan from the gods to procreate beings similar to themselves.  Or simply perhaps to help spirit beings of our type to achieve the maximum potential that we are able.

So while we do not see the traditional work of the gods present in nature, shooting lightning bolts and driving the chariot of the sun across the daytime sky; we do see the protection of guardian angels.  And if there are angels, there are the gods that made them!  I cannot say with any certainty that these same spirit beings were around a billion years ago, or four billion years for the creation of our solar system; or even back a couple hundred thousand for the rise of Man. But they are most certainly here now.  And it seems rather convenient to consider the possibility of them doing some of the same kinds of stuff they do today, back when the world was young and needed it the most! 

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« Reply #22: December 23, 2010, 08:13:35 am »

Science tells us that there are quite a number of fortunate circumstances that led to this planet having the ability to sustain life.  I wish that the scientists would abandon their prejudice against the possibility of outside involvement, and simply accept the testimony of so many people!

Large numbers of people can testify to having seen spiritual beings modify planets to make them able to support life (or create life on planets)?
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« Reply #23: December 23, 2010, 11:14:24 am »



Guardian Angels are the key factor to consider here. IMO anyway.  Wink

A does not lead to B for me.

Yes, there's a number of factors that make life livable, and were any one of those different we wouldn't be here.  And it's tempting to say that it's all that way *for us*.  But ... if it were a different way, we just wouldn't exist to know about it.  We're looking at cause and effect backwards.

Angels, gods, whatnot - I've no idea why science *should* prove them or *admit* to them or whatever.  Doesn't make any sense.
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« Reply #24: December 23, 2010, 02:32:20 pm »

Large numbers of people can testify to having seen spiritual beings modify planets to make them able to support life (or create life on planets)?

The gods being able to modify the weather and major circumstances throughout the Earth is the stuff of myth and legends.  Angelic beings moving a car two feet to the left to save someone in an accident; is a rather common place testimony from the residents here on this planet.

If all we ever look for scientifically is an omnipotent God, or super powerful beings who can "modify planets to make them able to support life", then we may be barking up the wrong tree.  But if angelic interference is a factor today (and goes unnoticed by scientists with all their equipment in their labs), it possibly could have been a similar factor way back when.  Instead of powerful gods moving the entire planet large distances, or creating it out of nothing, perhaps less powerful beings could have moved a few rocks (with extremely accurate precision and foresight), to ensure the planet formed in the proper size and distance from the sun to support life.

Cosmology and Evolution show evidence of a very gradual set of changes.  Why could "God" not be the force of gradual change, rather than the traditional superpower we all were told to look for?  If we hear the testimony of hidden, gradual, life preserving change today (in the persona of guardian angels); why is it such a stretch to imagine the same factors were at work during "creation"?



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« Reply #25: December 24, 2010, 07:17:06 am »

Yes, there's a number of factors that make life livable, and were any one of those different we wouldn't be here.  And it's tempting to say that it's all that way *for us*.  But ... if it were a different way, we just wouldn't exist to know about it.  We're looking at cause and effect backwards.


Science is looking for cause and effect backwards, if I understand correctly.  The laws of physics we have today are seen as a constant, that only if they haven't changed somewhere along the way can we calculate what may have happened in the distant past.  It is a process of elimination, removing all the computable facts of what could not have happened; leaving us with the very few possibilities of what could have. 

I do apologize though; I know I have a difficult time getting my thoughts out on the first try.  I tend to skip steps in my presentation; and for those who don't know me or haven't heard where I stand on other matters it's easy to fill in the missing gaps with standard assumptions.  Do feel free to ask (or just ignore me, if it doesn't pique your interest!  Wink

I'm not a college educated man.  It's not my intentions to present a respectable dissertation of my findings.  What I happen to be is a guy who seems to live between two worlds, having both a mystical aptitude as well as the ability to reason and discuss religious and metaphysical principles in an adequate way.  Unfortunately though, I find myself lacking in areas in both ends of the spectrum, as I am not fully committed to either one.  But I do have my strengths in being able to see how to bring both worlds together, which is simply what I'm trying to relate here.

I think we would do well to be honest with ourselves when it comes to spiritual phenomenon.  Something I call "mystical integrity."  We tend to exaggerate our interpretation of most mystical encounters.  Or disbelieve them entirely.  But if we would only take a stand for integrity in this area, then we could analyze our experiences and see them simply for what they are.

Let me explain:  Say we see a profile of the Virgin Mary etched in the weathered side of building.  Some would say it is proof of the existence of an omnipotent God.  Others would say it is nothing but circumstance.  Perhaps it is either one of the two.  But honestly, etching a picture in faded paint is not necessarily the work of an omnipotent being.  We humans can do better.  Doing it unseen, and gradually over the years as the weather beat against the side of the building, shows evidence of an artist of a different sort than a human one.  ...Or, it may just be coincidence, especially if the picture is only distinguishable by those with an abundance of faith!  Smiley

Minor mini-miracles have traditionally been inflated to "prove" the existence of major deities; whom we have been told possess great power and authority over the elements of the Earth.   Science cannot find these deities, and so the general consensus is that the mini-miracles also do not take place.  But then we have the religious folk, who insist that the major deities exist.  They point to the mini-miracles as proof of a God who can do ever so much more if he ever wanted to.  But unless I'm really missing out on something, these mini-miracles might be all we have.

Cosmology and Evolution fit in quite well though with mini-gods who only preform mini-miracles.  Smiley  Gradual change over long periods of time.  Protection over one or several species, while others are let to become extinct.  But we seem to be polarized between religion and science; an all or nothing battle where the winner takes all.  Either an omnipotent being created everything and had Moses write a record of it down in the Bible, or we chalk it all up to chance.

If we could drop our predetermined beliefs, and just simply take a good look at what is in the here and now; then perhaps we could understand better what may have happened in the past.  Unfortunately most people are not interested in taking an objective look at their mystical experiences.  They are more interested in tweeking them to fit their already made up minds.
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« Reply #26: December 24, 2010, 08:04:17 am »

Science is looking for cause and effect backwards, if I understand correctly.  The laws of physics we have today are seen as a constant, that only if they haven't changed somewhere along the way can we calculate what may have happened in the distant past. 

Science could deal with the laws of physics changing over time. There is just no evidence that they have.
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« Reply #27: December 24, 2010, 04:31:22 pm »



Just for the sake of my own sanity...Was this in any way intended to relate to my post, or were yo just replying to the most recent post?
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« Reply #28: December 24, 2010, 07:28:07 pm »

Just for the sake of my own sanity...Was this in any way intended to relate to my post, or were yo just replying to the most recent post?

Well, if my posts are so awful that it's driving you insane worrying whether or not you are the one responsible for encouraging me to step in here and open up my mouth...   Wink

Then let's just go with option B.
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« Reply #29: December 25, 2010, 01:45:13 am »

Well, if my posts are so awful that it's driving you insane worrying whether or not you are the one responsible for encouraging me to step in here and open up my mouth...   Wink

Then let's just go with option B.

LOL. I didn't mean to imply your post was in any degree aweful. I was just getting increasingly frustrated with myself that I couldn't find a way to make it relevant to mine and wanted to give it a well-considered response if it was actually intended to be Smiley
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