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Author Topic: Creation  (Read 4522 times)
Smoke
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« Topic Start: September 16, 2010, 06:28:02 pm »

Okay this question came to mind when I was on another forums talking to some people. I thought I should ask.

So every religion has a creation story right(I think anyways...I'm not exactly sure.) Do you nesiccarily follow the story of the Pantheon you work with or do you follow something else? What if you have multiple Pantheons? What do you do then? Just wanted some opinions because I was kinda confused.

Thankies Smiley
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« Reply #1: September 16, 2010, 06:34:04 pm »

So every religion has a creation story right(I think anyways...I'm not exactly sure.)

Not actually the case.

Quote
Do you nesiccarily follow the story of the Pantheon you work with or do you follow something else?

What does it mean to you to "follow the story"?  (I don't follow any stories, creation or otherwise; I don't have any idea how or what it would mean.)
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Smoke
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« Reply #2: September 16, 2010, 06:37:52 pm »

Not actually the case.

What does it mean to you to "follow the story"?  (I don't follow any stories, creation or otherwise; I don't have any idea how or what it would mean.)

I mean like do you believe that the world was created that way. Maybe I didn't say it right...
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« Reply #3: September 16, 2010, 06:48:23 pm »

I mean like do you believe that the world was created that way. Maybe I didn't say it right...

My beliefs that way are based on scientific theories - and I know they are theories so they aren't exactly beliefs either.
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« Reply #4: September 16, 2010, 06:53:46 pm »

My beliefs that way are based on scientific theories - and I know they are theories so they aren't exactly beliefs either.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying you believe in the Gods and scientific theories about how the world was made? Is there a way to believe in both science and the Gods?

Sorry if I sound stupid or ignorant. I don't have much experiance in this area. So sorry.
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« Reply #5: September 16, 2010, 07:03:15 pm »

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying you believe in the Gods and scientific theories about how the world was made? Is there a way to believe in both science and the Gods?

Sorry if I sound stupid or ignorant. I don't have much experiance in this area. So sorry.

I am a hard polytheist, so yes I believe in gods - many of them.  I don't have anything to do with most of them, but I believe in them.  And I don't follow a whole pantheon, I have one deity that I deal with a lot and another I am aware of.  But I don't believe that any god/dess created the heavens and the earth - I believe in scientific theories as the best explanation we have at this time.  And, really, I believe that the meaning of life is zygotes making more zygotes until such a time as I am proven wrong.

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« Reply #6: September 16, 2010, 07:03:30 pm »

So every religion has a creation story right(I think anyways...I'm not exactly sure.) Do you nesiccarily follow the story of the Pantheon you work with or do you follow something else? What if you have multiple Pantheons? What do you do then? Just wanted some opinions because I was kinda confused.

As others have said, not every religion has a creation story. Or particularly cares.

As part of my 3rd degree work, I was asked to write what I thought it was for me. Mine turns out not to be a 'story' - it's got no narrative, no real protagonist, and not much plot, either. What it centers about, for me, is the lightning on the primal ocean, and what grows from there.

I'm going to quote it below as it's not absurdly long, in case it's helpful, because it was designed to do two things that are part of your question: how does this fit with observed science, and how does it deal with polytheism beyond a cultural level. (It does other stuff, too.)

**

All things begin in the dark. There is the dark of the night, and the dark of the void. There is the dark of the deep spaces, of the waters, and of the patient moment. All things begin in the multitude of darks, waiting.

There is the balance of the Greek kosmos: the great ornament of the universe that shows the turning and interconnection of worlds. There can be no fire - whether in the smallest hearth, or within the bright sun - without fuel. There can be no water without the most basic elements of matter, interwoven with tiny pearls of air. There can be no earth without fire to melt and spread the elements, and water, to wear and redistribute them. There can be no air without the plants and the beings that form it - and without the warmth of the sun that give these things life and space to grow. These things grew from the dark, together and separate, shaping one another and intertwining in many-colored ways.

Were there Gods there, in the first dance of the kosmos? How could we - so far and so distant - tell?

But spirits formed as these things grew and mingled, as new shapes took root. Spirits of the great sea, and of the small lake, of the high mountain, of the leafy plants. Spirits of the caves, of the molten core, of the high atmosphere, of the crystalline gem. The great sea floor spread, and the waters above it. The air, blanketing around, and the great fires of the sun and the core of the world, shaping. The spirits stretching out in many variations across the universe.

I believe in the storm and the sea, the lightning touching the ocean afire.

This great light triggered this world's great surge of life through a prism, creating so many varieties. The tiny amoeba. The coral, and fish, and then the great creatures of the sea. The waters shifted and changed. There was land above the waves, and in time, creatures upon the land - small and awkward at first, but growing in wonder and multitudes. As those creatures grew into mankind, I believe that the spirits also changed. That those great spirits of the waters, of the hills, of the rocks, of the trees, of all the types of life there are became new and changed and glorious.

Do they have a single source, a single Divine Parentage?

In some sense, yes, for all things come from that first fire and that first ocean. But they grew so differently, as children do. Some enjoy each other's company. Others tolerate it. There are ancient, longstanding loves and fears, competitions and cooperations.

Does their lineage truly matter?

What matters is in the doing: the actions and interactions. There are old Gods whose names are forgotten. Some continue to reach out to those who would listen to them. Others, perhaps, do not. Some Gods are long-famous, their tales told for millenia, from elder to younger, changing slowly in the telling, but holding the essential Truths that all tales bring. There are the spirits of the fire and air, water and earth. The mystical creatures. The Guardians. All formed over time, from moment following moment, as all beings are, but still individual and distinct. Themselves.

I believe in the memory, and in the future.
In the thought and the form.
In the possibility of change and growth.
And becoming new once again.

***

[If anyone would like to copy this into personal notes, feel free - just cite it to Jenett Silver, 2007. If for some reason you want to share it somewhere else, please PM/email me for permission, as this is a fairly personal piece and I'd like to know where it's going to show up.)
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« Reply #7: September 16, 2010, 07:07:18 pm »

I am a hard polytheist, so yes I believe in gods - many of them.  I don't have anything to do with most of them, but I believe in them.  And I don't follow a whole pantheon, I have one deity that I deal with a lot and another I am aware of.  But I don't believe that any god/dess created the heavens and the earth - I believe in scientific theories as the best explanation we have at this time.  And, really, I believe that the meaning of life is zygotes making more zygotes until such a time as I am proven wrong.



Oh okay thanks for explaining. Smiley
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Smoke
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« Reply #8: September 16, 2010, 07:11:47 pm »

As others have said, not every religion has a creation story. Or particularly cares.

As part of my 3rd degree work, I was asked to write what I thought it was for me. Mine turns out not to be a 'story' - it's got no narrative, no real protagonist, and not much plot, either. What it centers about, for me, is the lightning on the primal ocean, and what grows from there.

I'm going to quote it below as it's not absurdly long, in case it's helpful, because it was designed to do two things that are part of your question: how does this fit with observed science, and how does it deal with polytheism beyond a cultural level. (It does other stuff, too.)


Okay I see where you're going with this. I think anyways. Thanks for your input!

Oh and you're a really good writer.
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Darkhawk
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« Reply #9: September 16, 2010, 07:56:42 pm »

Is there a way to believe in both science and the Gods?

Plenty.  They are completely different fields, so dealing with both is like having breakfast and a girlfriend.  (Actually, probably a better metaphor is like having a math textbook and a painting.)

Science is a study of how things happened.  Physical processes, their results, and predictions about how the material world can be demonstrated to work.

Religion deals with the assignment of meaning to things.  (Things on their own don't mean anything, they just are.  Science deals with 'just-is' stuff.)
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« Reply #10: September 16, 2010, 08:05:03 pm »

Plenty.  They are completely different fields, so dealing with both is like having breakfast and a girlfriend.  (Actually, probably a better metaphor is like having a math textbook and a painting.)

Science is a study of how things happened.  Physical processes, their results, and predictions about how the material world can be demonstrated to work.

Religion deals with the assignment of meaning to things.  (Things on their own don't mean anything, they just are.  Science deals with 'just-is' stuff.)

Oh I think I get it. Thanks.
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« Reply #11: September 17, 2010, 03:52:05 pm »

Plenty.  They are completely different fields, so dealing with both is like having breakfast and a girlfriend.  (Actually, probably a better metaphor is like having a math textbook and a painting.)

Science is a study of how things happened.  Physical processes, their results, and predictions about how the material world can be demonstrated to work.

Religion deals with the assignment of meaning to things.  (Things on their own don't mean anything, they just are.  Science deals with 'just-is' stuff.)

For me, science addresses the questions of WHAT happened and HOW, while religion addresses the questions of WHY things happened and WHY they happened they way they did.

Which is basically just re-stating what Darkhawk said.   Cheesy

While there certainly are people who believe creation stories literally, many people take creation stories as myths that help us understand why we exist.

Does that make sense?
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« Reply #12: September 17, 2010, 04:24:42 pm »

For me, science addresses the questions of WHAT happened and HOW, while religion addresses the questions of WHY things happened and WHY they happened they way they did.

Which is basically just re-stating what Darkhawk said.   Cheesy

While there certainly are people who believe creation stories literally, many people take creation stories as myths that help us understand why we exist.

Does that make sense?


Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by "What" and "how?" I'm still a bit confused.
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« Reply #13: September 17, 2010, 06:10:15 pm »


Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by "What" and "how?" I'm still a bit confused.

I can try.  Wink

Basically, what I'm saying is that science and religion can both address the same subjects, but they deal with different aspects of the subjects.    So, if we're talking about the subject of "creation" (specifically, how the earth and humans came to be), science looks at the geology, chemistry, physics of it, while religion looks at the philosophy.

These are very broad generalizations, of course.  And there's LOTS of overlap.  It can be very subjective.

Science: What is the earth made out of?  How did the physical material that makes up the earth all get to be in the same place at the same time?  What force holds that matter together to create a planet?  How do plants and animals take in food and create energy?

Religion:  Why do humans exist?  Are we each here for a reason? 

Is that any clearer?  I'm happy to keep trying, if I'm not explaining clearly.
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« Reply #14: September 17, 2010, 06:44:55 pm »

I can try.  Wink

Basically, what I'm saying is that science and religion can both address the same subjects, but they deal with different aspects of the subjects.    So, if we're talking about the subject of "creation" (specifically, how the earth and humans came to be), science looks at the geology, chemistry, physics of it, while religion looks at the philosophy.

These are very broad generalizations, of course.  And there's LOTS of overlap.  It can be very subjective.

Science: What is the earth made out of?  How did the physical material that makes up the earth all get to be in the same place at the same time?  What force holds that matter together to create a planet?  How do plants and animals take in food and create energy?

Religion:  Why do humans exist?  Are we each here for a reason? 

Is that any clearer?  I'm happy to keep trying, if I'm not explaining clearly.

Oh. I get it now! Thanks!
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