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Author Topic: How about revenge?  (Read 9435 times)
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« Reply #15: October 10, 2010, 01:04:53 am »

Well, what do you guys think about revenge? Sometimes it makes me feel relieved to see a person suffer who made me suffer too. But on the other hand, hate shouldn't consume you entirely. Is revenge justified? Do you turn the other cheek? How far do you go when it comes to revenge, are you actively boycotting that person, or just enjoy when things go wrong?
I was wondering about the rule of 3. I'm not sure if I should follow it or not, but the people who do, do you think revenge is also part of it, like you hurt me, I can hurt you 3 times as hard? Or do you see it in another perspective?





I prefer justice to revenge myself; justice is about restoring order, revenge is about making yourself feel better. I am, however, also a firm believer in restitution, rather than forgiveness. If someone has slighted me, it is on them to "make it up" to me; I have no obligation to forgive them. Frankly I find the notion of instant forgiveness weird, and considerably contrary to the concept of justice. However if someone has earned it, has payed what is owed, then bearing them any further grudge is pointless, and unjustified. If one performs some heinous act in which there is no means to make restitution, then they must bear that as well.
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« Reply #16: October 10, 2010, 09:06:43 am »

I prefer justice to revenge myself; justice is about restoring order, revenge is about making yourself feel better. I am, however, also a firm believer in restitution, rather than forgiveness. If someone has slighted me, it is on them to "make it up" to me; I have no obligation to forgive them. Frankly I find the notion of instant forgiveness weird, and considerably contrary to the concept of justice. However if someone has earned it, has payed what is owed, then bearing them any further grudge is pointless, and unjustified. If one performs some heinous act in which there is no means to make restitution, then they must bear that as well.


I agree with this. A lot of the time, straight-up forgiving someone is just asking for them to walk all over you. If they're not sorry, if they've not set things right, if you just let them off the hook they'll know they can do it again and again. If I feel I have done something to displease my Gods, grovelling and begging for forgiveness and nothing else is not going to get me anywhere. They expect me to damn well go out there and try to make things right again, even if it's difficult.

I get the impression that simple revenge is not something Manannán (in particular) is massively keen on. If you're not careful, revenge can go on and on forever and eat into you like nothing else. It makes me think of "Njáls Saga" - Icelandic, I know - where the blood feuds snowball and screw things up for everyone. I, like others here, prefer justice, where correct, proportionate reparation is made. Sometimes those in authority may not care and you may have to do as best you can yourself, often justice is not "nice", but I find it to be distinct from revenge.
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« Reply #17: October 10, 2010, 09:33:48 am »

I agree with this. A lot of the time, straight-up forgiving someone is just asking for them to walk all over you. If they're not sorry, if they've not set things right, if you just let them off the hook they'll know they can do it again and again.

I have understood 'forgiving' someone is something that has more to do with your own emotional involvement, than in approving the acts of the others.

To me it means: when I forgive someone, I am not holding something against that person. I can still take actions. I can still judge, and respond to, the action. But it's not directed at the person behind it or drawing from my negative emotions anymore.

And best way to illustrate is, I think, what happens when a young child (or one with special needs) does something hurtful: I will still address the behaviour. (I will usually not say they are forgiven, but they are. I do not hold their behaviour against them.)

Also, I think forgiveness empowers you. Especially in situations in which the line has already be drawn, and there cannot be a next time because you don't engage in such a relationship anymore. Forgiveness is something to get closure on the lingering feelings after the bond is already broken. Forgiveness, in my opinion, has nothing to do with allowing it or not attaching consequences to behaviour but everything with how you go from there, and how much and which kind of emotional energy you attach to it.
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« Reply #18: October 10, 2010, 11:30:33 am »

I have understood 'forgiving' someone is something that has more to do with your own emotional involvement, than in approving the acts of the others.

To me it means: when I forgive someone, I am not holding something against that person. I can still take actions. I can still judge, and respond to, the action. But it's not directed at the person behind it or drawing from my negative emotions anymore.

And best way to illustrate is, I think, what happens when a young child (or one with special needs) does something hurtful: I will still address the behaviour. (I will usually not say they are forgiven, but they are. I do not hold their behaviour against them.)

Also, I think forgiveness empowers you. Especially in situations in which the line has already be drawn, and there cannot be a next time because you don't engage in such a relationship anymore. Forgiveness is something to get closure on the lingering feelings after the bond is already broken. Forgiveness, in my opinion, has nothing to do with allowing it or not attaching consequences to behaviour but everything with how you go from there, and how much and which kind of emotional energy you attach to it.

I can see where you're coming from with this. I have no problem with forgiving something that has been addressed and sometimes there is simply nothing you can expect someone to do in reparation for something they have done because there is nothing they can do. The analogy you used, involving young children and people with special needs, didn't quite fit for me because often such individuals don't quite realise why their actions are hurtful and it'd be absurd to hold it against them, behaviour addressed or not. Likewise, if someone does something that hurts me and didn't realise, or didn't mean to, or regrets it, why hang on to it? But to hold a grudge against someone who is never going to be sorry, I'll agree that hurts you too. If someone is going to string you along, better to forget them and move on, rather than let them get you riled up and give them power against you in doing so. This is what I mean about not liking revenge - you are thinking about them and what they did and it can poison the mind. I get what you mean by forgiving someone in your own mind and I don't think that doing so necessarily means you're going to take crap from them.

I would question whether forgiveness, mental or otherwise, is required to move on from something. I also do not feel it is a question of accepting someone's bad behaviour, more like acknowledging it was wrong, but I will no longer hold it against them - to me it's more of a clean slate as far as that negative action was concerned. If someone deliberately does something wrong and hurts me on purpose, I will always have that in my mind. I've had people do things to me that I cannot forgive, because it will always be at the back of my mind that I cannot trust them on some level and I need to be wary. Not so much hanging onto a grudge as being aware that they haven't changed and, if I must interact with them, I must do so with caution. It's well enough to say to avoid them, but sometimes you can't. I may have let go of what they actually did, but I know it might happen again.

TL;DR: I think I might have a very unusual, rather personal and specific definition of forgiveness, heh. Not knocking anyone else's definitions, this is just what it means to me, in my mind and in my life. 
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« Reply #19: October 10, 2010, 12:40:32 pm »

Not so much hanging onto a grudge as being aware that they haven't changed and, if I must interact with them, I must do so with caution. It's well enough to say to avoid them, but sometimes you can't. I may have let go of what they actually did, but I know it might happen again.

TL;DR: I think I might have a very unusual, rather personal and specific definition of forgiveness, heh. Not knocking anyone else's definitions, this is just what it means to me, in my mind and in my life. 

Well actually, this did make me think. I know what you mean by 'cautious' around certain people and I don't really know yet how I see that as related to forgiveness etc. On the other hand... there are people that I am just as cautious about because my instincts tell me. And I've learned to trust my instincts on this. But at that point I know no actual actions, even less directed at me, so, forgiveness is not at issue I think...

Gotta think about that some more.
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« Reply #20: October 10, 2010, 01:17:34 pm »

Well actually, this did make me think. I know what you mean by 'cautious' around certain people and I don't really know yet how I see that as related to forgiveness etc. On the other hand... there are people that I am just as cautious about because my instincts tell me. And I've learned to trust my instincts on this. But at that point I know no actual actions, even less directed at me, so, forgiveness is not at issue I think...

Gotta think about that some more.

Well, for me it's not so much caution as I might have around someone when my instincts tell me something, or when I've been warned to be careful. I'm by nature a suspicious bugger, so my instincts tend towards wariness until I know someone properly.

It's more well-founded caution in this particular situation. If I know what someone is like and I know they might screw me over, and not in a fun way, I know to watch out. Not necessarily bearing a grudge over a specific incident, not plotting bloody-minded revenge, just not being able to wipe that slate clean until they've earned my trust again - and there's an uphill struggle if ever I saw one. If someone does manage to earn my trust again, well, that's another matter.
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« Reply #21: October 13, 2010, 03:32:39 pm »

Well, what do you guys think about revenge? Sometimes it makes me feel relieved to see a person suffer who made me suffer too. But on the other hand, hate shouldn't consume you entirely. Is revenge justified? Do you turn the other cheek? How far do you go when it comes to revenge, are you actively boycotting that person, or just enjoy when things go wrong?
I was wondering about the rule of 3. I'm not sure if I should follow it or not, but the people who do, do you think revenge is also part of it, like you hurt me, I can hurt you 3 times as hard? Or do you see it in another perspective?





I Believe you should stand up for yourself. If someone has wronged you I believe its a good idea to deal with that aggressively (Not necessarily with violence) but it should be quick and to the point. Maybe just confronting them and telling them that was unacceptable or maybe by showing some display of dominance and then offering a peaceful resolution. In the end its important to make it clear that their behavior will not be tolerated and that you will not let them walk all over you. If someone has done something too someone you love I believe it should be dealt with on a higher scale. Again make it clear that will not be tolerated.
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« Reply #22: October 14, 2010, 12:15:16 am »

Well, what do you guys think about revenge? Sometimes it makes me feel relieved to see a person suffer who made me suffer too. But on the other hand, hate shouldn't consume you entirely. Is revenge justified? Do you turn the other cheek? How far do you go when it comes to revenge, are you actively boycotting that person, or just enjoy when things go wrong?
I was wondering about the rule of 3. I'm not sure if I should follow it or not, but the people who do, do you think revenge is also part of it, like you hurt me, I can hurt you 3 times as hard? Or do you see it in another perspective?

I live by these words:

"Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other!; smite him hip and thigh, for self-preservation is the highest law! He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog! Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom--with compound interest liberally added thereunto! Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred-fold! Make yourself a Terror to your adversary, and when he goeth his way, he will possess much additional wisdom to ruminate over."

-Anton LaVey, The Book of Satan III,The Satanic Bible

I find a great lot of truth in the statement...

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« Reply #23: October 14, 2010, 12:28:46 am »

I live by these words:

"Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other!; smite him hip and thigh, for self-preservation is the highest law! He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog! Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom--with compound interest liberally added thereunto! Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred-fold! Make yourself a Terror to your adversary, and when he goeth his way, he will possess much additional wisdom to ruminate over."


Never really been a fan of the eye for an eye thing. I'd rather stop the cycle of hate and violence - because unless someone does something /really/ despicable, hate seems like a pretty wasted emotion to me - than perpetuate it trying to get even. My problem with what you quoted is that LaVey seems to be setting up a (false) dichotomy where the options are to let someone walk over you or you can blow everything out of proportion in the name of "self-preservation". (What's self-preserving about getting revenge is beyond me.) I think a middle ground is a lot healthier for all parties involved, and a heck of a lot saner.
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« Reply #24: October 14, 2010, 12:55:19 am »

Never really been a fan of the eye for an eye thing. I'd rather stop the cycle of hate and violence - because unless someone does something /really/ despicable, hate seems like a pretty wasted emotion to me - than perpetuate it trying to get even. My problem with what you quoted is that LaVey seems to be setting up a (false) dichotomy where the options are to let someone walk over you or you can blow everything out of proportion in the name of "self-preservation". (What's self-preserving about getting revenge is beyond me.) I think a middle ground is a lot healthier for all parties involved, and a heck of a lot saner.

As someone said earlier, free will [and the physics of karma] come into play here. LaVey makes a very black-and-white scenario here indeed, which is troublesome when you want to get down and dirty. But if you take it at face value--if you are talking, as he is, about your arch enemy, your most hated adversary, these words stand true.

Self-preservation and getting revenge are related--say a mother abuses her kid. The kid gets revenge by going to the authorities, who send her to prison. If you end the scenario there, it's a good example of self-preservation through revenge. Of course, the kid then goes to foster care, where it's a toss-up of a good home or not, and then the example kind of goes to crap. Cheesy

A middle ground is a lovely thing to have, but it's not always possible. When it isn't possible, there are certain plan B's to fall back upon.
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« Reply #25: October 14, 2010, 12:59:32 am »

Self-preservation and getting revenge are related--say a mother abuses her kid. The kid gets revenge by going to the authorities, who send her to prison. If you end the scenario there, it's a good example of self-preservation through revenge. Of course, the kid then goes to foster care, where it's a toss-up of a good home or not, and then the example kind of goes to crap. Cheesy

That didn't sound like what LaVey was saying, though. It sounded like he was advocating getting back at folks by giving them a taste of their own medicine. Taking your example of the child abuse case - I don't consider that getting revenge, I consider that getting out. Getting revenge would be the child growing up, hunting down his/her mother, and performing the same abuse on her.

Maybe you should explain a little more about what you mean when you say the word revenge. The LaVey quote's throwing me off, because I'm agreeing with most of what you're saying.
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« Reply #26: October 14, 2010, 01:32:36 am »

That didn't sound like what LaVey was saying, though. It sounded like he was advocating getting back at folks by giving them a taste of their own medicine. Taking your example of the child abuse case - I don't consider that getting revenge, I consider that getting out. Getting revenge would be the child growing up, hunting down his/her mother, and performing the same abuse on her.

Maybe you should explain a little more about what you mean when you say the word revenge. The LaVey quote's throwing me off, because I'm agreeing with most of what you're saying.

Hmm, I suppose you're right. I think funny. Cheesy I view revenge to be a willful act of cursing another who has wronged you in a deep, hurtful way. If that kid put his mom in prison out of spite, that, to me, is revenge. I should have been more clear, I'm sorry!

I just like how forcefully LaVey said it...there's some drama in those words! I like a dramatic manifesto.
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« Reply #27: October 14, 2010, 10:43:03 am »

Well, what do you guys think about revenge? Sometimes it makes me feel relieved to see a person suffer who made me suffer too. But on the other hand, hate shouldn't consume you entirely. Is revenge justified? Do you turn the other cheek? How far do you go when it comes to revenge, are you actively boycotting that person, or just enjoy when things go wrong?

This topic hits me hard, because it is something I struggle with everyday. I do believe in the rule of 3 but I also have a very hard time letting go once I've been consistently wronged. That's the key, I can forgive a one time slight, but not a pattern. I also believe in the silver rule: I treat everyone with respect and kindness, until they give me reason to do otherwise, and then I treat them how they treat me. As for revenge, I know it's wrong but sometimes I feel it's justified. I know it's not right, and I wish I could be someone who could turn the other cheek, but I can't. I used to be able to, until I got walked all over by male roommates who would keep me up on nights I had finals and midterms, disrupting my sleep, my food, and making me feel unsafe in my own home. I'm glad I was finally able to get out of the situation but it made me rethink my understanding and nonconfrontational ways.

I know it's wrong, but sometimes, I think small petty acts of revenge can be ok and helpful for moving on and letting things go, if you truly have a problem with that, like I do. It's wrong, I know that, and I've never done anything terrible to others. And I always think you should talk about and ponder the situation first, respectfully asking for a cessation of what irks you but if you do this and are ignored, well....

As a college student, for the last 5 years I've lived with a rotating cast of disrespectful (in varying ways and degrees) male roommates, running the gamut from a racist alcoholic who keep me up from 3am-7am, would drunkenly eat my food and then deny it come morning, to a sweet but misguided wandering minstrel who would cook great vegetarian feasts...in my dishes...and never clean them, so many stories of outrage, I could write a book.

Anyway, I rarely felt wronged enough to take my revenge but I was stressed and emotionally insane because of constant battles and disrespect. When I did, it was small stupid things that made me feel better (and I'd often feel bad about and remove or fix once I'd calmed down) like an angry note, or pouring the two liter of coke they were using to chase shots down the linoleum stairs, and covering it with the cup of sugar they were using for goddess-knows-what. That was a terribly sticky hilarious mess that he didn't seem to mind, and I ended up cleaning a few weeks later.

I would NEVER, however, use magic or visualizations of harm against others, no matter how delightful a notion it might seem.
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« Reply #28: October 14, 2010, 12:18:18 pm »

That didn't sound like what LaVey was saying, though. It sounded like he was advocating getting back at folks by giving them a taste of their own medicine.

LaVey (and his brand of Satanism) definitely didn't give a damn about karma or any reciprocal universal principle of that ilk.

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« Reply #29: October 31, 2010, 12:59:01 am »

Is revenge justified? Do you turn the other cheek? I was wondering about the rule of 3. I'm not sure if I should follow it or not, but the people who do, do you think revenge is also part of it, like you hurt me, I can hurt you 3 times as hard? Or do you see it in another perspective?


I had deep hatred for two people who wronged me in a very serious way, a way that changed me forever. I still had school with them for years. Everytime I saw them I wanted to scream at them, or push them down. I more violent thoughts, and desires as well. I knew my hatred was basically fueled by the fact that I felt intimidated and small around them, and so I wanted to prove I was supirior, not a little shy child anymore. But after a long time I finally was honest with myself, and finally choose to move on. I didnt forget. I still see them from time to time, and sometimes I feel those evil thoughts coming back, but then I remember how dark my hatred made me. Where I am going with this is that....revenge is not right. There is a very thin line between justice and revenge. If someone is a murderer should they be murdered? What makes you just as mean or bad as those you hate or dislike? Those are really questions you need to answer to decide what you think is right, and what isnt in cases of revenge.

For me, I think no kind of harm is right. I think even if someone has harmed you greatly, you should let the law/Gods/fate take care of them and give them the justice they diserve. Now, if you are kidnapped and your only way out is kicking and fighting- by all means, do so...but I doubt thats what your refering to.
I am not saying I havent been pleased when someone I dont like trips, or gets a small part in a play. Its kind of human nature. But dont let it control you. Know that it is wrong, and try not to cause pain or take joy in others pain.

As for the rule of thirds...it doesnt really mean to cause pain to someone else. It means when you cause pain or trouble, you will get it back 3 times. Not if someone causes you pain or harm, youu can cause them harm 3 times. That would probably result in you getting whatever pain you inflected on the other 3 fold...least that is my take on it.

Anyhow, you've probably heard this stuff already but...I just wanted to add my few cents to the bank. Revenge is not justice and revenge is rarely justified. Let fate decide the penance for someone.
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