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Author Topic: The difference between 'black' and 'dark'  (Read 22241 times)
Mandi
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« Topic Start: June 08, 2007, 09:18:25 am »

distinguishes between black magic and magic that is merely dark,

Spun off from Sunny Dawns book thread; Put in the 101 so she can post in it.   Wink

Even though some declare that there is no color to magic besides intent, this got me wondering.  Where does intent cross from gray area to just directly dark intentions?

Is there a test of intent that isn't subjective?

What are the differences between 'dark' magic and 'black' magic?
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« Reply #1: June 08, 2007, 09:22:05 am »


What are the differences between 'dark' magic and 'black' magic?

I might have argued differently in the past, but I'm fairly casual about it now.  I've definately performed dark magic, and by some standards I've performed black magic.  I don't think it's really modified by intent, or circumstance.  That's just a way of making oneself feel better about it.  (shooting someone trying to kill you in self defence is understandable, and may well be what the majority of people would do...but you still shot someone, and for most people that isn't an easy thing to do).

I'm not sure where the line is. I do know that I'm willing to cross it when I feel the need.  Life doesn't give you a cookie for being a good boy/girl.
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« Reply #2: June 08, 2007, 09:49:15 am »

(Mod note:  This post was moved over from this thread to help keep topics organized.)

Has anybody done it yet?  I'll toss one out, cause I don't see it yet, and we'll kill it off it it's already going and I missed it?

Here we go.  This is an excerpt from Chapter Three:  Bowl of Heaven.

Note the difference between drawing on dark energy and working black magic. Using black magic involves a motivation of jealously or insecurity, with the intent to deprive a target of his or her will.  Black magic brings harm to its target, ranging from physical or emotional injury to death.  On the other hand, protecting yourself in a dangerous situation or one that involves the aggression of others may involve summoning dark energy for which a price may later need to be paid.  Dark energy may be used to shift the will of an aggressor, or to retaliate for an act of aggression, but it does not involve the intent to maim or kill.  Nor is it centered on coercion that completely robs a target of his or her will.

Often, there is a thin line between the use of dark energy and black magic, so try to comprehend the difference before you do it.  Examine your conscience carefully before reaching out for dark energy; if your intent is clean, the Universe may take care of the job and even the balance of justice in some way, even if no benefits actually accrue to you.  Also keep in mind that should you find yourself in a miserable or desperate situation; the energy that you attract will frequently feel dark.  It can feel more powerful, and more frightening, than the energy that was summoned when working magic from your happy place.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 10:04:13 am by Star, Reason: Adding mod note at top » Logged
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« Reply #3: June 08, 2007, 10:33:33 am »

I might have argued differently in the past, but I'm fairly casual about it now.  I've definately performed dark magic, and by some standards I've performed black magic.  I don't think it's really modified by intent, or circumstance.  That's just a way of making oneself feel better about it.  (shooting someone trying to kill you in self defence is understandable, and may well be what the majority of people would do...but you still shot someone, and for most people that isn't an easy thing to do).

I'm not sure where the line is. I do know that I'm willing to cross it when I feel the need.  Life doesn't give you a cookie for being a good boy/girl.

I have performed dark magic.  And I came very close to performing black magic, and in one instance, did perform it.  The gods thankfully blocked it, and didn't punish me too hard.  Although they did punish.
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« Reply #4: June 08, 2007, 10:59:34 am »

Spun off from Sunny Dawns book thread; Put in the 101 so she can post in it.   Wink

Even though some declare that there is no color to magic besides intent, this got me wondering.  Where does intent cross from gray area to just directly dark intentions?

Is there a test of intent that isn't subjective?

What are the differences between 'dark' magic and 'black' magic?

Magic is magic, it is neither black, white, grey or sky blue pink with orange polka dots. How a practitioner uses it, may be considered otherwise, but that will be an entirely subjective definition.
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« Reply #5: June 08, 2007, 11:46:41 am »

(Mod note:  This post was moved over from this thread to help keep topics organized.)

Here we go.  This is an excerpt from Chapter Three:  Bowl of Heaven.

Using black magic involves: a motivation of jealously or insecurity, with the intent to deprive a target of his or her will.  ranging from physical or emotional injury to death. 

On the other hand, protecting yourself in a dangerous situation or one that involves the aggression of others may involve summoning dark energy for which a price may later need to be paid.  Dark energy may be used to shift the will of an aggressor, or to retaliate for an act of aggression, but it does not involve the intent to maim or kill.  Nor is it centered on coercion that completely robs a target of his or her will.

(some snipping to really focus in on a thought)


So how about destructive action for destructive actions sake?  The energetic equivalent of throwing dishes at the wall just for the pleasure of breaking them.  This seems like an area that most books dealing with religion and magic together don't look at.  They typically gloss it over with destructive action not making sense.

I don't always work with deity in my magical practices, so I don't feel that when I work with darker intents that I'm summoning something dark to do dark work, just that I am using my energy destructively.

Robbing another individual of their will, I might consider to be on the classically spoken 'black' side of the bedsheets; but I find it to be so open to interpretation and circumstance that I can't really tell what's 'robbing someone of their will' There are many social situations where subtle manipulation is the coin of the land, and even compromise could be considered altering another persons will.

If I smile nicely and you suddenly decide that yeah, you really do want to give me that 5$ then I don't consider it to be 'dark' so much as creating an inclination in a direction that one wouldn't otherwise be against.  I don't find anything WRONG with giving you 5$ although, I might not have been willing to part with the 5$ before you smiled.

Sometimes I feel akin to a potter with clay, applying pressure and washing away the bits that don't comply with my will and creating something else all together out of a set of raw circumstances.  I can't make eggs into apples, but I can make a good quiche. 

I don't see this as black, but perhaps as something that would not be considered love and light either. 

Do you think the 'penalties' for dark magic come from your psyche, or from an outside source?
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
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« Reply #6: June 08, 2007, 11:47:46 am »

I have performed dark magic.  And I came very close to performing black magic, and in one instance, did perform it.  The gods thankfully blocked it, and didn't punish me too hard.  Although they did punish.

<shrugs> I wasn't blocked, and I don't appear to have been punished.  Then again my practice doesn't involve gods.
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« Reply #7: June 08, 2007, 11:53:48 am »

Magic is magic, it is neither black, white, grey or sky blue pink with orange polka dots. How a practitioner uses it, may be considered otherwise, but that will be an entirely subjective definition.


I'm not asking if magic is energy and if energy has a color. 

I will re-word for the sake of clarification.

When working with negative intention, and getting close to the splitting hairs level, what intentions would you consider to be forbidden under circumstances where actions are taken deliberately, rather than responsively.

When you aren't in a situation where your arm is twisted up behind your back, what would you consider a questionable magical practice, in comparison with one that is outright unacceptable.

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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
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« Reply #8: June 08, 2007, 01:29:59 pm »

What are the differences between 'dark' magic and 'black' magic?

I don't have enough assumptions in common with this question to answer it.

I keep coming around to quoting Victor Anderson:  "White magic is poetry.  Black magic is anything that works."
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« Reply #9: June 08, 2007, 02:14:55 pm »

I keep coming around to quoting Victor Anderson:  "White magic is poetry.  Black magic is anything that works."

I love this.  It isn't true, but it IStrue, and its so funny.
I think others get envious when magic really works.  There is no praise without envy...until you're dead.

Anderson is wonderful. I love his poem, The Temple of Words.
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Mandi
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« Reply #10: June 08, 2007, 02:18:13 pm »

I don't have enough assumptions in common with this question to answer it.

I keep coming around to quoting Victor Anderson:  "White magic is poetry.  Black magic is anything that works."

I can agree with that one. 

:nod nod:
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I'm gonna tell my son to join a circus so that death is cheap
And games are just another way of life
And I'm gonna tell my son to be a prophet of mistakes
Because for every truth there are half a million lies
And I'm gonna lock my son up in a tower
Till he learns to let his hair down far enough to climb outside.
-LIz Pahir
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« Reply #11: June 08, 2007, 02:22:13 pm »

So how about destructive action for destructive actions sake?  The energetic equivalent of throwing dishes at the wall just for the pleasure of breaking them.  This seems like an area that most books dealing with religion and magic together don't look at.  They typically gloss it over with destructive action not making sense.

I don't always work with deity in my magical practices, so I don't feel that when I work with darker intents that I'm summoning something dark to do dark work, just that I am using my energy destructively.

Robbing another individual of their will, I might consider to be on the classically spoken 'black' side of the bedsheets; but I find it to be so open to interpretation and circumstance that I can't really tell what's 'robbing someone of their will' There are many social situations where subtle manipulation is the coin of the land, and even compromise could be considered altering another persons will.

If I smile nicely and you suddenly decide that yeah, you really do want to give me that 5$ then I don't consider it to be 'dark' so much as creating an inclination in a direction that one wouldn't otherwise be against.  I don't find anything WRONG with giving you 5$ although, I might not have been willing to part with the 5$ before you smiled.

Sometimes I feel akin to a potter with clay, applying pressure and washing away the bits that don't comply with my will and creating something else all together out of a set of raw circumstances.  I can't make eggs into apples, but I can make a good quiche. 

I don't see this as black, but perhaps as something that would not be considered love and light either. 

Do you think the 'penalties' for dark magic come from your psyche, or from an outside source?

These are good points, Mandy.  You are a good writer yourself.  I don't have time to explore it in the book to this degree, cause the 'darn book is probably already too long.

No, social manipulation isn't robbing someone of their will.  Taking away someone's livelihood, for example, or making it impossible for them to get a new job - this would be an example of "will-robbing".

From where I stand, in my own little skin, it sure appears like an outside source from my frame of reference.  However, many psychologists and medieval rabbis (the first "thinkers" on the Goetia demons) argued that the penalties are indeed coming from your own psyche, since you do not fully control it.
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« Reply #12: June 08, 2007, 02:43:13 pm »

I wasn't blocked, and I don't appear to have been punished.  Then again my practice doesn't involve gods.

While I believe in God/Cosmic Consciousness/Universal Energy as a Panentheist, my god does not judge or set rules.  I sow what I reap in some respects, but only if I let myself fall victim to feelings of hate or envy or any unhealthy and uncontrolled emotion or acts that I let consume and control me.
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« Reply #13: June 08, 2007, 05:38:58 pm »

What are the differences between 'dark' magic and 'black' magic?

No such thing. Associating "evil" with darkness and black are just products of a) patriarchy and b) white supremacy.

As for negative intentions...simply a matter of perspective. If you do a spell to get yourself a new job, that's positive for you. But for someone who hates you, that's negative. Or for the person you're replacing. Or the company you're leaving.

Someone I know once held a community cursing of a certain individual--a serial rapist. A bunch of women got together and cursed his butt off, and he stopped. The person who held the event? Has suffered no ill-effects from it, so far as I can tell.

Positive or negative?

It all boils down to perspective.

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« Reply #14: June 08, 2007, 05:47:12 pm »

[Dark energy may be used to shift the will of an aggressor, or to retaliate for an act of aggression, but it does not involve the intent to maim or kill.  Nor is it centered on coercion that completely robs a target of his or her will.

As far as I can see energy is energy. The energy I use for a healing spell could just as easily be used in a will binding spell or even a direct magical attack -- just like the same electricity can be used to run a heart-lung machine or an electric chair.
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