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Author Topic: Opinions on Halal please?  (Read 11595 times)
gorm_sionnach
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« Reply #15: November 22, 2010, 06:50:44 pm »

The latest response that I recieved is as follows:-

ime not gonna get into an arguament about this one - if you realy beleive that some religeous arshole blesses or sanctifies anything before they slit its throat and hang it up on a conveyor belt by one back leg whilst its still try...ing to screem in protest then carry on beleiving it - i beleive that a beleif is a beleif - no religion of any kind should hold any sort of power over people or animals - we are ( thank fuck ) very sheltered in this country coz we rejected dictatorial religions but ( if we are not very carefull ) organised religion is nocking on the door again and REALISE that this religion doesn't tollerate any rights or respects of any other religion or faith , pagans , buddists , cristians , or athyists ( or enlightened as i like to call them ) they will not be tollerated and will infact will be persicuted as they are in the rest of the areas controlled by these religions and yes i do mean muslems and jews , oh and before ime declared a racist , ime definatly not a racist , ime a religionist and very proud of that fact.

I really don't know how to answer this one politely.......

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« Reply #16: November 23, 2010, 11:39:12 pm »

The latest response that I recieved is as follows:-

ime not gonna get into an arguament about this one - if you realy beleive that some religeous arshole blesses or sanctifies anything before they slit its throat and hang it up on a conveyor belt by one back leg whilst its still try...ing to screem in protest then carry on beleiving it - i beleive that a beleif is a beleif - no religion of any kind should hold any sort of power over people or animals - we are ( thank fuck ) very sheltered in this country coz we rejected dictatorial religions but ( if we are not very carefull ) organised religion is nocking on the door again and REALISE that this religion doesn't tollerate any rights or respects of any other religion or faith , pagans , buddists , cristians , or athyists ( or enlightened as i like to call them ) they will not be tollerated and will infact will be persicuted as they are in the rest of the areas controlled by these religions and yes i do mean muslems and jews , oh and before ime declared a racist , ime definatly not a racist , ime a religionist and very proud of that fact.

I really don't know how to answer this one politely.......

I'm still trying to get past his spelling issues, much less the "logic" of his argument.
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« Reply #17: November 24, 2010, 01:47:19 am »

I'm still trying to get past his spelling issues, much less the "logic" of his argument.

Tell me about it! Does bad spelling make you mad, too?
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« Reply #18: November 24, 2010, 02:12:51 am »

Tell me about it! Does bad spelling make you mad, too?

When it is this bad, yes.  It makes it very hard to take someone seriously if they cannot even be bothered to run spell check.
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« Reply #19: January 31, 2011, 01:32:04 pm »

boycot hallal meat people.

Ha ha okay I know I'm late to the party but this ^ is a bit of a nutter statement. It's not as though Halal is (generally) widely consumed by the average person in the first place, and certainly not (I would think) by persons that might agree with this clearly bigoted person. Also, wtf is a 'religionist' as he calls himself in a later rant?
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« Reply #20: January 31, 2011, 01:51:14 pm »

Also, wtf is a 'religionist' as he calls himself in a later rant?

Pretty much what it sounds like. A racist hates people because of race, a sexist because of gender, and a religionist because of religion. If it helps, he is against any and all religions, not just specific ones........ Huh Undecided
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« Reply #21: January 31, 2011, 01:54:43 pm »

Pretty much what it sounds like. A racist hates people because of race, a sexist because of gender, and a religionist because of religion. If it helps, he is against any and all religions, not just specific ones........ Huh Undecided

That is...wow. I'm not sure how to respond to that, so he's deliberately giving himself a bigot's label?  Undecided Maybe he's one of those that takes a twisted pride in his hate. Unpleasant.

I couldn't bring myself to read all of his later rants, the spelling was too much to bother overcoming just to ingest more of that vile brand of baseless hate. Yeesh.
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« Reply #22: March 20, 2011, 09:39:33 pm »

Ha ha okay I know I'm late to the party but this ^ is a bit of a nutter statement. It's not as though Halal is (generally) widely consumed by the average person in the first place, and certainly not (I would think) by persons that might agree with this clearly bigoted person. Also, wtf is a 'religionist' as he calls himself in a later rant?

It is kind of silly to boycott something like halal butchers. I mean, they're not in it for the money. They do what they do because they believe it's their religious duty to do it. It's not like boycotting a major corporation that's going to be looking at their profits and trying to stay on their customers' good sides. Muslims are still going to buy halal meat because they believe they are religiously obligated to do it. As far as non-Muslims go, I don't imagine a halal butcher is going to care too much about what they think of the practice one way or the other since it's a religious custom and the opinions of people outside of that religious community are going to seem largely irrelevant.

As to the wider issue of the humaneness of the method for killing animals, it's really hard to say. From what I see, scientists seem to be relatively uncertain about it, but there is a good case to be made that it's probably not much more distressing for the animal than most other types of slaughter. I know there are some people, as has been mentioned in this thread, that deliberately buy halal and kosher meats because they believe that those methods of slaughtering an animal are more humane. Honestly, I think there might be merit to this. In general, I think a case could be made that, since these are smaller butchers producing food for a more exclusive community, they probably care more about the well-being of the animals, at least in order to provide a higher quality product. Also, an animal that has its throat cut seems to lose consciousness very quickly. I've seen a few animals killed in this manner and they generally show a surprising lack of distress before they die. On the other hand, I've seen animals killed in more conventional ways that seem to be demonstrating an obvious amount of pain and fear while they die. I'm not a scientist, but I could definitely see some possible validity to the belief that the halal method may be more humane than some modern methods. Then again, to my mind, any method of obtaining meat that avoids some of the filthy and cruel conditions that animals in large scale "factory farms" have to deal with, including hunting, are probably more humane than just buying the mass produced meat one finds at most grocery stores.
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« Reply #23: March 20, 2011, 11:04:09 pm »

It is kind of silly to boycott something like halal butchers. I mean, they're not in it for the money. They do what they do because they believe it's their religious duty to do it. It's not like boycotting a major corporation that's going to be looking at their profits and trying to stay on their customers' good sides. Muslims are still going to buy halal meat because they believe they are religiously obligated to do it. As far as non-Muslims go, I don't imagine a halal butcher is going to care too much about what they think of the practice one way or the other since it's a religious custom and the opinions of people outside of that religious community are going to seem largely irrelevant.


Uh, no. Halal butchers are in the business to earn a living, just like kosher butchers and other butchers.  While there may not be a major company with halal division, I wouldn't be surprised to see that change within the next 20 years in the US.
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« Reply #24: March 21, 2011, 12:03:59 am »

walks like a bigot .. talks like a bigot ....

There's actually a lot of people these days choosing kosher and halal food because they think the process is MORE humane than the regular slaughterhouse method ....

Yes... my brother-in-law is Jewish (and my sister a convert to that faith) and they are very particular that their meat is kosher and humane. It's their understanding that part of the "kosherness" of it is that the animal was slaughtered in the most humane way possible. What he seems to be describing is warehouse-slaughter, kosher or not. But kosher slaughter, and, I assume, halal, can be - and are supposed to be - done in very humane ways. (At least, comparatively.) It's supposed to be a pretty painless way to go. I would assume it's a bit like being choked out? Shechitah (Jewish ritual slaughter) is supposed to result in unconsciousness within 2-3 seconds. Halal slaughter requires an extremely sharp knife (or it's not halal) and the blade can't be sharpened in front of the animal, because it might get stressed out. It doesn't sound all that inhumane or uncaring to me.

The refrigeration argument is fundamentally flawed -- the blood primarily drains out while hanging afterward, regardless of the method used. It's a bit quicker, if the throat has been slit for slaughter, but in the case of a deer that was shot, for instance, the throat is slit postmortem and the deer hung by its hind legs for draining.  If he wants to say slaughtering any animal for food is morally bankrupt, fine. If he wants to say that warehouse slaughter is reprehensible, fine. But... I have no idea what refrigeration would even have to do with this particular aspect of halal. 

Tell him you're too busy boycotting bigotry, and that once that's dealt with you'll have more free time to worry about cows.
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« Reply #25: March 21, 2011, 01:02:12 am »

Uh, no. Halal butchers are in the business to earn a living, just like kosher butchers and other butchers.  While there may not be a major company with halal division, I wouldn't be surprised to see that change within the next 20 years in the US.

Of course they have to make money to stay open. The point is that their incomes are dependent upon certain cultural and religious factors rather than just the general market forces and public opinion that most businesses rely on to bring in income. Imagine if I own a chain of normal bookstores and I decide to start carrying adult, though not necessarily pornographic, material. Now imagine a conservative church finds out about this and starts a campaign to boycott my stores. The campaign catches on and spreads to Catholic and main-line Protestant churches. The campaign gets some coverage in the news and suddenly there's a general perception amongst the public, even those that don't attend any of these churches, that my stores sell pornography. Faced with the potential for a public backlash, I'd probably back down pretty quickly lest I be stuck with the stigma and my profits start reflecting it.

Now, imagine instead I own a pagan bookstore that also sells materials like herbs and whatnot that could be used in magic and occult practices. The same thing happens. A conservative church finds out about my store, deems it morally dangerous, and starts a campaign to boycott my store that eventually spreads to more liberal Catholic and Protestant churches. The local news finds out and covers the story, trying to be even-handed since there are cultural and religious issues involved, but the general public starts to get the impression that I'm selling material of a Satanic nature. Is that going to bother me? Probably a little, though my main concern would be that people are going to take things too far and it will lead to someone committing violence against me, my employees, my family, or my customers or perhaps even resorting to vandalism or arson against my store. Will I care about the implications of what the general public thinks though? Not really. I probably didn't go into the business expecting I was going to make much money. I will know that I have a dedicated customer base that appreciates the specialized material I carry and won't necessarily be troubled about some of the items in my inventory the way the general public will. Sure, my profits might see a small dip as I lose sales from Christians and other non-pagans who might have made a few purchases out of curiosity or as gifts for some of their more pagan-inclined friends and relatives, but I will always know that I serve a niche market of people that will not be swayed by the argument that what I sell is morally dangerous in any way.   

Now, if times change for some reason and the broader paganism movement starts to move away from certain types of magic and occultic practices, I could be in some serious trouble financially, but those types of things are so ingrained in the modern pagan movements that that's very unlikely and probably won't be happening anytime soon. Likewise, halal and kosher practices are so ingrained in the culture and theology of modern Jewish and Muslim movements that it's very unlikely there's going to be a large scale shift in attitudes in the near future. Granted, it certainly COULD happen, in the past there have been sects that have developed within Islam that have gone so far as to adapt vegetarian diets for instance, but seeing that kind of profound shift on a large enough scale that it eventually alters the culture of Muslims and Jews around the world, or at least in the West, is pretty unlikely. If it does happen, it will almost have to take at least two or three generations.
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« Reply #26: March 21, 2011, 12:58:59 pm »

It is kind of silly to boycott something like halal butchers. I mean, they're not in it for the money. They do what they do because they believe it's their religious duty to do it. It's not like boycotting a major corporation that's going to be looking at their profits and trying to stay on their customers' good sides. Muslims are still going to buy halal meat because they believe they are religiously obligated to do it. As far as non-Muslims go, I don't imagine a halal butcher is going to care too much about what they think of the practice one way or the other since it's a religious custom and the opinions of people outside of that religious community are going to seem largely irrelevant.

Over here, certain fast food-restaurants and stores have taken up on selling halal meat as mainstream, childcare facilities prepared halal lunches for everyone, because it was easier than having separate stock. It meant muslims could eat out and get groceries at the store just as easily.

But now people have been protesting against that, and I can't interpret it any different than to emphasize the differences, to counteract integration. To single out muslims, put them in a position where they have to draw attention to them, and make it difficult for them.
And I don't believe it's about animals for one second because really, the ones who protest halal meat over here haven't cared at all in any way about any of the previous scandals about animals - goose liver pate, animals that were dragged all over Europe just so they could be sold as parma ham or limousin beef, or 50 thousand animals stuffed in small cages - but have all sorts of opinions about muslims.
Boycotting this mainstream halal meat probably won't help animals, nor will it hurt the butchers much (although, of course, some will probably see their market share fall)... but it certainly does hurt the people eating, that see their options of normally eating out diminished and xenofobia rise again.
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« Reply #27: March 21, 2011, 09:09:59 pm »

Over here, certain fast food-restaurants and stores have taken up on selling halal meat as mainstream, childcare facilities prepared halal lunches for everyone, because it was easier than having separate stock. It meant muslims could eat out and get groceries at the store just as easily.

But now people have been protesting against that, and I can't interpret it any different than to emphasize the differences, to counteract integration. To single out muslims, put them in a position where they have to draw attention to them, and make it difficult for them.
And I don't believe it's about animals for one second because really, the ones who protest halal meat over here haven't cared at all in any way about any of the previous scandals about animals - goose liver pate, animals that were dragged all over Europe just so they could be sold as parma ham or limousin beef, or 50 thousand animals stuffed in small cages - but have all sorts of opinions about muslims.
Boycotting this mainstream halal meat probably won't help animals, nor will it hurt the butchers much (although, of course, some will probably see their market share fall)... but it certainly does hurt the people eating, that see their options of normally eating out diminished and xenofobia rise again.

I agree. Bigotry and xenophobia do seem to play a large role in much of this. I think the same is true for places passing laws against the wearing of the burqa and whatnot even though only a very small amount of Muslim women choose to wear them anyway. They could pretend that banning the burqa is all about protecting the rights of women and preventing security problems and all of that, but the bottom line is that it seems pretty clear that people are just being anti-Muslim. I mean, you hardly ever hear these same people standing up for the rights of women in any other situation. Suddenly, the staunchest conservative magically turns into a huge feminist when it gives them a chance to talk bad about Muslims. I don't know, it's just kind of depressing.
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