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Author Topic: Crane Bags  (Read 12857 times)
Finn
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« Reply #15: December 16, 2010, 01:58:02 pm »

It might also be representative of folk practices surrounding the family sewing bag. In folklore its used to trap fairies and demons, it holds magic objects and is enchanted itself. It could be related to the existing Piseog bag tradition where to bless or curse youd place a number of things into a bag and hang it from a tree on the land of the person you want to effect.

Could you point me toward more information about these two traditions? I've never heard of these before, and I'd love to find out more.
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« Reply #16: December 16, 2010, 04:25:22 pm »

Could you point me toward more information about these two traditions? I've never heard of these before, and I'd love to find out more.
Its folk culture so you could try searching the journals, maybe the cranebag, using Piseog as a keyword or through the library you could try for Sean O Suileabhain Nosanna agus Piseoga na gael, I think it might be published as 'Irish folk custom and belief' there. Or there are some eddie lenihan video's on youtube where he discusses the piseog bags. I think he mentions the sewing bag in folkstories in 'The devil is an Irishman'. Its mentioned in most versions of the Jack O Lantern story....

He mentions the piseog bags and what goes into a typical one at the end of this part of the interview and the start of the second part.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuTIFYUD6yE
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« Reply #17: December 16, 2010, 04:35:19 pm »


Cool--thank you!
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« Reply #18: December 16, 2010, 04:41:53 pm »


Yes, thanks for sharing! Really interesting. Smiley
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« Reply #19: December 16, 2010, 04:56:19 pm »

Youre welcome Smiley Dont spread the info around too much it took centuries of struggle for that stuff to be around today itd be crappy to see t become a generic neopagan thing. ike a fairy bag or a leprechaun bag or somethin

Yes, thanks for sharing! Really interesting. Smiley



Taliesin would there be a British thing similar to piseog bags? I remember reading about versionshat woud be buried on someones land there... but that wouldve been in archaeology stuff around the time of the jacobites
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« Reply #20: December 16, 2010, 08:18:36 pm »

Taliesin would there be a British thing similar to piseog bags? I remember reading about versionshat woud be buried on someones land there... but that wouldve been in archaeology stuff around the time of the jacobites

Possibly swan skins...

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/etc/witches.html

Similar sort of thoughts behind 'witch bottles', too:

http://www.archaeology.org/0011/newsbriefs/wine.html
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« Reply #21: December 17, 2010, 03:51:35 am »

Its not a shaman thing, thats north america not Ireland....
Nitpick (but some nits really need to be picked):  It's not North America either, it's Siberia.

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« Reply #22: December 17, 2010, 05:26:04 am »

Nitpick (but some nits really need to be picked):  It's not North America either, it's Siberia.

Sunflower
Sorry I was thinking more along the lines of americans embracing their lands spiritual traditions or the sham man types who cynically exploit the native traditions like that lad who got people killed in a sweat lodge there last year. Are there many groups in siberia? Or is there one famous person who published in siberia around the start of the 20th century ike a Shaman Gardiner type?
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« Reply #23: December 17, 2010, 05:47:41 am »

Sorry I was thinking more along the lines of americans embracing their lands spiritual traditions or the sham man types who cynically exploit the native traditions like that lad who got people killed in a sweat lodge there last year. Are there many groups in siberia? Or is there one famous person who published in siberia around the start of the 20th century ike a Shaman Gardiner type?
Try thinking along the lines of Siberian indigenous tribes and their traditional practices.

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« Reply #24: December 17, 2010, 06:54:36 am »

Try thinking along the lines of Siberian indigenous tribes and their traditional practices.

Sunflower

Ah right, so is neopagan shamanism related to siberian shamanism then? In a way that it wouldnt be related to native american shamanism or like norweigan shamanism? Or is it their version of the medicine bag thats being copied?
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« Reply #25: December 17, 2010, 07:27:50 am »

Ah right, so is neopagan shamanism related to siberian shamanism then? In a way that it wouldnt be related to native american shamanism or like norweigan shamanism? Or is it their version of the medicine bag thats being copied?

Here's the thing... "shamanism" is a very problematic term when it's used to refer to any non-siberian cultures. It implies that all native cultures have the same shamanic figure and the same underlying religious structure and thus work the same. Here's a thread on "Celtic shamanism" which explores why "shaman" is a loaded and often incorrectly-used term.
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« Reply #26: December 17, 2010, 09:21:22 am »

Ah right, so is neopagan shamanism related to siberian shamanism then? In a way that it wouldnt be related to native american shamanism or like norweigan shamanism? Or is it their version of the medicine bag thats being copied?
Ellen has covered this politely.  I, OTOH, am thoroughly fed up with repeating myself (you can see what I have to say when I'm being more polite, at the thread she links to), so I'm going to be very blunt.

There is NO SUCH THING as "Native American shamanism" - this was the nit I was picking.  There is, similarly, NO SUCH THING as "Norwegian shamanism".

There is - and I suspect this may be the point you're trying to make - no such thing as "Irish shamanism" or "Celtic shamanism".  But you're not going to successfully make that point by implying that it's somehow more legitimate to apply the word "shaman" to Native American or Norwegian (by which I assume you're referring to the Saami, many of whom aren't in Norway at all?) practices than to Irish/Celtic.  The Piseog bag, and the AODA's Crane Bag, are just as much "a shaman thing" as "Americans embracing their land's spiritual traditions":  that is, all of them are not at all "a shaman thing".

There are, yes, neopagans who use the word "shamanism" to describe/identify what they do; their use of the word is no more legitimate than applying it to non-Siberian indigenous cultures.  I'll admit it's hard to refer to them without using that word, but it's not that hard to use it in a way that distinguishes them from indigenous Siberian shamans - in the context in which you used it, "neoshaman" would have served nicely; there are other terms in use as well.

Sunflower
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« Reply #27: December 17, 2010, 09:33:51 am »

Here's the thing... "shamanism" is a very problematic term when it's used to refer to any non-siberian cultures. It implies that all native cultures have the same shamanic figure and the same underlying religious structure and thus work the same. Here's a thread on "Celtic shamanism" which explores why "shaman" is a loaded and often incorrectly-used term.

Oooooh I see, thanks for that. OWould I be right in saying that n this sig atleast the popular critical thought is that shamanism unless it relates to folk tradition is an invalid practice? I was completely lost there when siberia was mentioned lol.

Id have a similar view on druids myself. I wouldnt say neopagan druidry is invalid but an historical druidry in Ireland is questionable imo and someone claiming they are an Irish or gaelic druid following /reconstructing an historical trad rather then following a a blended neopagan druidry might be up the swanny
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« Reply #28: December 17, 2010, 09:35:38 am »

Ellen has covered this politely.  I, OTOH, am thoroughly fed up with repeating myself (you can see what I have to say when I'm being more polite, at the thread she links to), so I'm going to be very blunt.
I remember you now sunflower, and I remember why I dont involve myself with the site. See yah love  I hope whatever is makin you as unhappy as you are clears up.
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« Reply #29: December 17, 2010, 09:42:20 am »

I remember you now sunflower, and I remember why I dont involve myself with the site. See yah love  I hope whatever is makin you as unhappy as you are clears up.

Um. Sunflower wasn't ranting at you personally. She actually explained herself very well while also conveying an annoyance of hers - that the term "shaman" gets misunderstood and co-opted by folks who don't know any better, or are into the New-Agey spin of things. I'm sorry you interpreted that as a personal attack, but she's a good person, a great mod, and cares a lot about this site and the religions on here.
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