The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
October 01, 2022, 04:28:04 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 01, 2022, 04:28:04 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Theistic Satanism: Branch of Christianity or Pagan Religion?  (Read 6233 times)
Vermillion
Journeyman
***
Last Login:December 29, 2013, 04:32:42 pm
United States United States

Religion: Witchcraft Practitioner- Naturist
Posts: 187


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Topic Start: January 05, 2011, 11:05:39 am »

I'm posting this because I have read a debate on this topic somewhere else and it has me frustrated.

Do you think Theistic Satanism should be classified as a branch of Christianity, simply for having a deity in common? Or would Theistic Satanism be a Pagan religion?

My take:

Theistic Satanists can't be a branch of Christianity because Christians all have three things in common, no matter what branch. They all worship Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior, follow some type of interpretation of the Bible, and depending on what branch you're looking at, believe Satan is evil. If they believe in him at all.

Theistic Satanists, do not worship Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior, instead they worship that which Christians fear. Satan. However, there are people out there trying to lump Theistic Satanists in with Christians because they share a deity, and I think that's stretching it a bit.

In my opinion, that just doesn't work. That's like saying that just because your patron is Athena, you're a Hellenic Recon, or that since you worship Odin, you MUST be an Odinist, or a branch of it. Satanists can't be Christian of any stripe because the do not hold to the tenets of Christianity, or embrace Jesus Christ in any fashion.

But, on to the Pagan part. I believe that Theistic Satanists are actually Pagan. Why? Because paganism is the umbrella term we use to house religions that are not of the Big Three, Christianity, Islam or Judaism. And, being that Theistic Satanism can't be Christian of any stripe, or Islamic, or Judaic, that would make them Pagan.

Thoughts? Am I way off base? Missing something?
Logged

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

EverFool
Board Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 16, 2011, 12:40:01 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: atheist
Posts: 2960


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #1: January 05, 2011, 11:12:50 am »



1) Christians do not see Satan as a deity.

2) Some theistic Satanists define themselves as pagans.  Others do not.  I think it is pointless to dictate to members of a religion where their religion falls in a taxonomy.

3) With that said, I don't think I've ever heard of a Satanist claiming to be any kind of Christian.  I suspect it's safe not to place Satanism of any kind within that category.
Logged

If anal prolapse teaches us anything, it's that it is what is inside that counts.
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:June 19, 2022, 03:47:05 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #2: January 05, 2011, 11:20:32 am »

Do you think Theistic Satanism should be classified as a branch of Christianity, simply for having a deity in common?

Many religions have one or more deities or powerful figures in common without being the same religion; this argument makes about the same sort of sense as claiming that the witches focused on Lilith are really Jewish.

Also, not all theistic Satanists deal with Satan in the first place.  Consider: the Temple of Set.
Logged

Vermillion
Journeyman
***
Last Login:December 29, 2013, 04:32:42 pm
United States United States

Religion: Witchcraft Practitioner- Naturist
Posts: 187


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #3: January 05, 2011, 11:35:50 am »

Many religions have one or more deities or powerful figures in common without being the same religion; this argument makes about the same sort of sense as claiming that the witches focused on Lilith are really Jewish.

Also, not all theistic Satanists deal with Satan in the first place.  Consider: the Temple of Set.

See, I knew I would get rational discussion here. I hadn't thought of the Temple of Set, that's a very good point. So, would you consider them Pagan? Or...actually unclassified?


@Everfool, that's also a good point about Christians not seeing Satan as a deity. Deity was my term to put on him for this post, which is misleading pm my part. And, I have also not heard the Satanism/Christianity link until now, it's was very odd news to me.
Logged
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:June 19, 2022, 03:47:05 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #4: January 05, 2011, 12:00:12 pm »

See, I knew I would get rational discussion here. I hadn't thought of the Temple of Set, that's a very good point. So, would you consider them Pagan? Or...actually unclassified?

Some Setians consider themselves pagan.  Some consider themselves something else.  I don't see any particular need to determine for them.
Logged

RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #5: January 05, 2011, 12:02:56 pm »

Do you think Theistic Satanism should be classified as a branch of Christianity, simply for having a deity in common?

Many religions have a deity in common without being the same religion.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
catja6
Board Staff
Staff
Adept Member
***
Last Login:March 21, 2022, 04:36:11 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Posts: 1119


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #6: January 05, 2011, 04:12:27 pm »


Whether an individual Satanist "counts" as Pagan or not is not your call.  The definition of Paganism we favor here at TC has a self-identification clause.  Some theistic Satanists self-identify as Pagan, others do not.  It all depends on how the individual believer understands and articulates their belief.  As long as they're not inaccurately representing other religions in order to claim (or disclaim) membership, then it's their call as to whether they're Pagan or not.  You don't get to decide for them.
Logged
Ellen M.
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:February 17, 2013, 08:34:24 pm
United States United States

Religion: ADF - UU - eclectic Wiccan - devotee of Brighid
Posts: 2479

Go, then - there are other worlds than these.

Blog entries (0)

Ellen MacInnis lellenator
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: January 05, 2011, 04:23:25 pm »


I think it depends on the Satanist in question and how they identify. I don't know a lot about the different strands (I know buzzwords like theistic Satanist versus LaVeyan Satanist versus Luciferian), but to me it just doesn't make sense to call them Christian for the reasons you've outlined. I'd have no problem if a Satanist self-identified with Pagan, either. I imagine, though, at least some would identify just as a Satanist and not see a reason to choose between the other two labels.
Logged

Sage and Starshine: My new Pagan blog about Druidry, witchcraft, Brighid, and everything in between. -- 14th post 6/1/11
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:June 19, 2022, 03:47:05 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #8: January 05, 2011, 04:31:44 pm »

3) With that said, I don't think I've ever heard of a Satanist claiming to be any kind of Christian.  I suspect it's safe not to place Satanism of any kind within that category.

I think it may be fair to say that, at least from some perspectives, low-budget horror B movie Satanists are performing a Christian heresy.  However, since those only exist in Hollywood, they are not highly significant when discussing real people. Wink
Logged

Vermillion
Journeyman
***
Last Login:December 29, 2013, 04:32:42 pm
United States United States

Religion: Witchcraft Practitioner- Naturist
Posts: 187


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #9: January 05, 2011, 05:53:20 pm »


Excellent responses, and I thank everyone for their to the point answers!
Logged
SunflowerP
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 08, 2022, 10:59:47 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Eclectic Wicca-compatible religious Witch (Libertarian Witchcraft)
TCN ID: SunflowerP
Posts: 5485


Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #10: January 05, 2011, 06:15:53 pm »

I'm posting this because I have read a debate on this topic somewhere else and it has me frustrated.
I'm curious - were the debaters pagan?  If so, I recommend trying to replace the frustration with amusement; this won't be the last time you encounter it, and it ain't worth the angst.

Sunflower
Logged

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
Vermillion
Journeyman
***
Last Login:December 29, 2013, 04:32:42 pm
United States United States

Religion: Witchcraft Practitioner- Naturist
Posts: 187


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #11: January 05, 2011, 10:05:23 pm »

I'm curious - were the debaters pagan?  If so, I recommend trying to replace the frustration with amusement; this won't be the last time you encounter it, and it ain't worth the angst.

Sunflower


Unfortunately, yes they were. And, it's actually not the first time this debate has come up on that particular venue, although in that particular group I believe it's the first time. In fact, after I posted it here, there were more people weighing in on the side of Satanism being a branch of Christianity since(and this is quote) "if you believe in Satan then you would believe in God as well".

And after thinking about it more, I agree with everyone else here, that it should be up to the particular Satanist to say where he/she feels they should stand.
Logged
EverFool
Board Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 16, 2011, 12:40:01 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: atheist
Posts: 2960


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #12: January 06, 2011, 06:25:57 am »


Unfortunately, yes they were. And, it's actually not the first time this debate has come up on that particular venue, although in that particular group I believe it's the first time. In fact, after I posted it here, there were more people weighing in on the side of Satanism being a branch of Christianity since(and this is quote) "if you believe in Satan then you would believe in God as well".

And after thinking about it more, I agree with everyone else here, that it should be up to the particular Satanist to say where he/she feels they should stand.

To be honest, I think the whole pagan thing about trying to class Satanism as Christianity is effectively about PR.
Logged

If anal prolapse teaches us anything, it's that it is what is inside that counts.
Vermillion
Journeyman
***
Last Login:December 29, 2013, 04:32:42 pm
United States United States

Religion: Witchcraft Practitioner- Naturist
Posts: 187


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #13: January 06, 2011, 07:35:24 am »

To be honest, I think the whole pagan thing about trying to class Satanism as Christianity is effectively about PR.

That's entirely possible. If it is, it's a wasted effort. Although, in the case of the group in question, most are Pagans that are very green to these religions, and have read some of the more dreaded books on them. I think most of them have never met a Satanist and have no understanding of that particular group.
Logged
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #14: January 06, 2011, 07:52:42 am »

To be honest, I think the whole pagan thing about trying to class Satanism as Christianity is effectively about PR.

I agree. I believe that some Pagans don't want Satanists considered Pagan because they think it would be bad publicity for Pagans.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.266 seconds with 55 queries.