Theistic Satanism: Branch of Christianity or Pagan Religion?

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[FierFlye]

there were more people weighing in on the side of Satanism being a branch of Christianity since(and this is quote) "if you believe in Satan then you would believe in God as well".

Even if they do believe in God's existence, that doesn't automatically make them Christians. It's entirely possible to believe that he exists without worshiping him.

[SunflowerP]

That's entirely possible. If it is, it's a wasted effort. Although, in the case of the group in question, most are Pagans that are very green to these religions, and have read some of the more dreaded books on them. I think most of them have never met a Satanist and have no understanding of that particular group.

Oh, drat... it really was a flock of fluffy bunnies doing the full-blown, "But we're not Those Nasty People!  We're good!" dissociation routine, then.  I was hoping for something a bit more sophisticated at least - probably because you specified "theistic Satanists", so I'd hoped the debaters at least knew enough to make that distinction, but I guess that was your phrasing, Vermillion.

Yep, it's PR, or a piss-poor attempt at it, and I agree that it's a wasted effort - it'd be wasted even if it were done well, because the worldview it's directed at doesn't think the distinctions matter anyway, but it's generally done so poorly that the only responses are exasperation or amusement.  F'ex, the rich irony of them accepting, without doing anything to find out what the Satanists themselves have to say about it, the accuracy of antiSatanist/antiPagan depictions of Satanism, even while loudly objecting that the aS/aP depictions of Paganism are not only inaccurate but that the inaccuracy is due to not finding out what Pagans themselves have to say about it.  I laugh, because else I'd cry.

(There are Pagans who are less ignorant about Satanists but want to exclude them anyway; I don't really think of them as specifically antiSatanist Pagans, because they usually have a longer list of Pagans Who Make The Rest Of Us Look Bad - and if you put together the lists of every person who does this, everybody would be excluded from Paganism.)

I can see a case being made that (some) theistic Satanism could be classed with the Abrahamic religions, but it'd still have to be considered distinct from the Abrahamic "Big Three" - and it wouldn't take long before the person making that case got tangled in just how fuzzy the boundaries are (f'ex, "classed with" != being Abrahamic with all that implies, so one'd have to come up with another umbrella term).

Sunflower

[Vermillion]

Oh, drat... it really was a flock of fluffy bunnies doing the full-blown, "But we're not Those Nasty People!  We're good!" dissociation routine, then.  I was hoping for something a bit more sophisticated at least - probably because you specified "theistic Satanists", so I'd hoped the debaters at least knew enough to make that distinction, but I guess that was your phrasing, Vermillion.

Yep, it's PR, or a piss-poor attempt at it, and I agree that it's a wasted effort - it'd be wasted even if it were done well, because the worldview it's directed at doesn't think the distinctions matter anyway, but it's generally done so poorly that the only responses are exasperation or amusement.  F'ex, the rich irony of them accepting, without doing anything to find out what the Satanists themselves have to say about it, the accuracy of antiSatanist/antiPagan depictions of Satanism, even while loudly objecting that the aS/aP depictions of Paganism are not only inaccurate but that the inaccuracy is due to not finding out what Pagans themselves have to say about it.  I laugh, because else I'd cry.

(There are Pagans who are less ignorant about Satanists but want to exclude them anyway; I don't really think of them as specifically antiSatanist Pagans, because they usually have a longer list of Pagans Who Make The Rest Of Us Look Bad - and if you put together the lists of every person who does this, everybody would be excluded from Paganism.)

I can see a case being made that (some) theistic Satanism could be classed with the Abrahamic religions, but it'd still have to be considered distinct from the Abrahamic "Big Three" - and it wouldn't take long before the person making that case got tangled in just how fuzzy the boundaries are (f'ex, "classed with" != being Abrahamic with all that implies, so one'd have to come up with another umbrella term).

Sunflower

Only a couple of the others in the group even mentioned Theistic Satanists at all, I was the first one to bring that particular group into the discussion. Most were assuming the LeVeyan followers, I think. One prevalent response was, "no because Pagans don't believe in Satan". I gather from a lot of what goes on in this group that most still believe "Pagan" is a religion in and of itself. As for the fluff, yes it exists in abundance in this group. I normally don't post much there, but there are a few really, really knowledgeable posters there, so I stay.

There are a couple of "satanists" in the group, oddly, none of them have weighed in on that thread, yet. They also have never said which type of Satanist they are, either.

[SunflowerP]

Most were assuming the LeVeyan followers, I think.

Given what else you have to say about these folks, I suspect quite a few of them don't even know enough to assume even that (or if they do, have little or no idea what that actually means).

One prevalent response was, "no because Pagans don't believe in Satan".

At which point it's clear that by "Satan" they mean, "that imaginary dude that the fundies get in such a swivet about," without reference to how that conception developed.  (By comparison, many theistic Satanists are practically recons.)

If you wanna mess with their heads, you could dig into Zoroastrianism and its influence on other religions in the Middle East, and construct an argument that Satanists aren't "upside-down" Christians, they're "upside-down" Zoroastrians.  Except that what they'd come up with in an effort to prevent their own heads from exploding would probably make yours explode.

Sunflower

[Melamphoros]

If you wanna mess with their heads, you could dig into Zoroastrianism and its influence on other religions in the Middle East, and construct an argument that Satanists aren't "upside-down" Christians, they're "upside-down" Zoroastrians.  Except that what they'd come up with in an effort to prevent their own heads from exploding would probably make yours explode.

Please do this, Vermillion, and post a link.  I have not had my 'splodey head fix in quite some time.

[Star]

Please do this, Vermillion, and post a link.  I have not had my 'splodey head fix in quite some time.

Please don't.  TC is not a staging area for stirring up trouble on other forums.

[Melamphoros]

Please don't.  TC is not a staging area for stirring up trouble on other forums.

Awwww.

[Vermillion]

Please do this, Vermillion, and post a link.  I have not had my 'splodey head fix in quite some time.

LOL, well, as much as I love good theatrics, said forum is one of those "you must apply to post and read here" places. So, my efforts would not give you the "splodey head" fix.

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