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Author Topic: Arizona congress member shot in head  (Read 16882 times)
LyricFox
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« Reply #45: January 09, 2011, 11:37:17 am »

I don't know if the DLC's promotion was accepted by the electorate. Not even sure where to look to figure that one out.

Ultimately that's where the problem lies, I think. Unless you're brain dead (and I'm using "you" in general terms), there is no way you could overlook the sort of rhetoric and imagery that has been used on the right (I think mainly by Tea Party fans....and I use the term "fans" because it's not always associated with any official organizational position). The same sort of rhetoric and imagery has been used by various radio personalities and a certain TV network. In other words, this has gone from fringe nuts talking to acceptable conversation amongst political types and talking heads.

There is not now, nor has there been in the last 10-20 years or so, the equivalent on the left. Voices on the left and the right bringing up legitimate points and some of it is controversial. Yes. Taking rhetorical aim using language and imagery best left out of political discourse, that's pretty much the sole purvey of the right.

Quote
I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on the protest photos. problem is going to be wether there was any MSM coverage at all, rather than coverage with condemation or specifically saying it was acceptable.


I'll be honest. I don't think you're going to find it. Granted, my political interest has been mainly over the last 10 years or so, but I don't remember anything similar that went from the fringe to acceptable, mainstream thinking.

The only thing I can think of that's even remotely similar were the feelings surrounding the Bush v. Gore decision. Even then, though, I don't remember equivalent rhetoric getting mainstreamed.
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« Reply #46: January 09, 2011, 03:20:25 pm »

Ultimately that's where the problem lies, I think. Unless you're brain dead (and I'm using "you" in general terms), there is no way you could overlook the sort of rhetoric and imagery that has been used on the right (I think mainly by Tea Party fans....and I use the term "fans" because it's not always associated with any official organizational position). The same sort of rhetoric and imagery has been used by various radio personalities and a certain TV network. In other words, this has gone from fringe nuts talking to acceptable conversation amongst political types and talking heads.

There is not now, nor has there been in the last 10-20 years or so, the equivalent on the left. Voices on the left and the right bringing up legitimate points and some of it is controversial. Yes. Taking rhetorical aim using language and imagery best left out of political discourse, that's pretty much the sole purvey of the right.

I'll be honest. I don't think you're going to find it. Granted, my political interest has been mainly over the last 10 years or so, but I don't remember anything similar that went from the fringe to acceptable, mainstream thinking.

The only thing I can think of that's even remotely similar were the feelings surrounding the Bush v. Gore decision. Even then, though, I don't remember equivalent rhetoric getting mainstreamed.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

but you can't click on it and get names.
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« Reply #47: January 09, 2011, 03:51:23 pm »


I'll be honest. I don't think you're going to find it. Granted, my political interest has been mainly over the last 10 years or so, but I don't remember anything similar that went from the fringe to acceptable, mainstream thinking.

The only thing I can think of that's even remotely similar were the feelings surrounding the Bush v. Gore decision. Even then, though, I don't remember equivalent rhetoric getting mainstreamed.

Either the Code Pink & such anti-war groups are giant wastes of time and totally ineffective at getting their message out, or the MSM doesn't want to provide significant coverage due to the rhetoric. Then compare coverage of the Tea Party protests and coverage of the rhetoric used.

BBC coverage of Oct 2007 in San Francisco
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7065975.stm

And photos from Zombie
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_anti-war_rally_oct_27_2007/

The site is often not work safe.

Or the April 2004 rally in SF
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_april_10_2004/characters/

And March of 2007
SF Gate (local newspaper)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/03/19/MNG06ONMIH1.DTL

And zombie
http://www.zombietime.com/us_out_of_iraq_now_sf_3-18-2007/

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« Reply #48: January 09, 2011, 04:09:19 pm »

Either the Code Pink & such anti-war groups are giant wastes of time and totally ineffective at getting their message out, or the MSM doesn't want to provide significant coverage due to the rhetoric. Then compare coverage of the Tea Party protests and coverage of the rhetoric used.

BBC coverage of Oct 2007 in San Francisco
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7065975.stm

And photos from Zombie
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_anti-war_rally_oct_27_2007/

The site is often not work safe.

Or the April 2004 rally in SF
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_april_10_2004/characters/

And March of 2007
SF Gate (local newspaper)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/03/19/MNG06ONMIH1.DTL

And zombie
http://www.zombietime.com/us_out_of_iraq_now_sf_3-18-2007/



um actually contrary to zombie's assertion that holding the flag upside down is "abuse" of the flag, it is rather a signal of distress, that the country is in trouble.  My understanding of the symbology is that if you see a flag upside it is s distress sign, analogous to SOS.  And that is actually what I'm getting from the pictures, that the people feel the country is in trouble.

I"m actually failing to understand some of the "passive agressive" stuff from the zombietime. 

But I will agree that there is a lot of anti-isreali stuff in the pictures. 

At the same time, alot of those people with the out there signs are also obviously the fringe.

Although I'm going to agree with you, if they don't get MSM coverage, they probably are giant wastes of time.  And under no circumstances are they going to rise to the level of acceptable mainstream thinklng without MSM coverage, which you state they aren't getting.  Which leaves them out at the fringe.
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« Reply #49: January 09, 2011, 04:17:41 pm »

Either the Code Pink & such anti-war groups are giant wastes of time and totally ineffective at getting their message out, or the MSM doesn't want to provide significant coverage due to the rhetoric. Then compare coverage of the Tea Party protests and coverage of the rhetoric used.

Is the rhetoric between the two groups the same, though? And would Code Pink be considered a "mainstream" or "fringe" group? Is Code Pink accepted as a viable leader within the Democratic Party? Being a Democrat, I can tell you that no, they aren't.

The thing is, a protest will always have dingbats. They show up at Tea Party rallies, and they show up at anti-war rallies. Protests by their very nature will attract some who want to take advantage of the media coverage to get their point across. That's common. What my frustration is with is this whole "both sides do it."

No. They don't. Not to the extent that you have people who are leaders in the Democratic Party saying the sort of shit you've heard over the last two years. That has the GOP's name written all over it. They've said it. They've defended it. They've promoted it.

Quote
BBC coverage of Oct 2007 in San Francisco
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7065975.stm

I guess I'm not seeing what you're pointing me to here. It's an anti-war protest. Not seeing anything more but some brief coverage.

And photos from Zombie
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_anti-war_rally_oct_27_2007/

The site is often not work safe.

Or the April 2004 rally in SF
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_april_10_2004/characters/

And March of 2007
SF Gate (local newspaper)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/03/19/MNG06ONMIH1.DTL

And zombie
http://www.zombietime.com/us_out_of_iraq_now_sf_3-18-2007/


[/quote]

Peter,

Out of 50 or so photos, I can find a handful that really are objectionable (I think I counted two or three that actually said "death to Bush" or some such BS), but most seem pretty much garden variety and a lot of them I'd be hard pressed to figure out what pisses people off about them.  But this is one city...an admittedly liberal one, but only one. And what I'm not seeing at all is how the photos show any sort of mainstreaming of these attitudes.

That is ultimately the whole point. When you have people who are validated by a major political party saying the sorts of things that we've been hearing for the last two years, you have a mainstream attitude. When a major party's political candidates are talking about "targets" and "bullets if ballots don't work" and "don't retreat; reload", you've got something far more serious than anti-war protesters waving signs.
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« Reply #50: January 09, 2011, 05:03:58 pm »

Is the rhetoric between the two groups the same, though? And would Code Pink be considered a "mainstream" or "fringe" group? Is Code Pink accepted as a viable leader within the Democratic Party? Being a Democrat, I can tell you that no, they aren't.

(snip)
I guess I'm not seeing what you're pointing me to here. It's an anti-war protest. Not seeing anything more but some brief coverage.

(snip)
Peter,

Out of 50 or so photos, I can find a handful that really are objectionable (I think I counted two or three that actually said "death to Bush" or some such BS), but most seem pretty much garden variety and a lot of them I'd be hard pressed to figure out what pisses people off about them.  But this is one city...an admittedly liberal one, but only one. And what I'm not seeing at all is how the photos show any sort of mainstreaming of these attitudes.

That is ultimately the whole point. When you have people who are validated by a major political party saying the sorts of things that we've been hearing for the last two years, you have a mainstream attitude. When a major party's political candidates are talking about "targets" and "bullets if ballots don't work" and "don't retreat; reload", you've got something far more serious than anti-war protesters waving signs.


I'm fairly sure that the Democrat party isn't supporting the protestors. Not so sure that the leaders of the party aren't happy with the anti-Bush / anti-incumbent party energy.

The BBC article was to show that the dingbats at the protests were not 1) getting much coverage 2) were not being called on their rhetoric. It could be that the reporters agree with the dingbats, or that the reporters don't consider it news worthy.

Between the specific protests I linked to, and the other protests Zombie covered, I'd say the rhetoric rises to the same level. Yes, there is a key difference between a viable canidate for VP saying such things with little blow back from her party and dingbats in SF.
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« Reply #51: January 09, 2011, 05:16:44 pm »

I'm fairly sure that the Democrat party isn't supporting the protestors. Not so sure that the leaders of the party aren't happy with the anti-Bush / anti-incumbent party energy.

The BBC article was to show that the dingbats at the protests were not 1) getting much coverage 2) were not being called on their rhetoric. It could be that the reporters agree with the dingbats, or that the reporters don't consider it news worthy.

Between the specific protests I linked to, and the other protests Zombie covered, I'd say the rhetoric rises to the same level. Yes, there is a key difference between a viable canidate for VP saying such things with little blow back from her party and dingbats in SF.

so the rhetoric rises to the same level, but is not repeated by the main party, is not moved to mainstream, and is basically ignored, by everyone outside of that particular group, it's the same as the rhetoric that is adopted by the mainstream party and repeated by a viable candidate.

or it's not that same.

you say both in the same paragraph.

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« Reply #52: January 09, 2011, 05:44:01 pm »

so the rhetoric rises to the same level, but is not repeated by the main party, is not moved to mainstream, and is basically ignored, by everyone outside of that particular group, it's the same as the rhetoric that is adopted by the mainstream party and repeated by a viable candidate.

or it's not that same.

you say both in the same paragraph.



same level of rhetoric, not same gravitas or weight.
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« Reply #53: January 09, 2011, 07:01:55 pm »

That being said, I think the shape of his delusions are more in line with extremist right/Tea Party rhetoric.

I'd say it could go either way. I don't think having that kind of extremist delusionalism is limited to merely the right. There is evidence popping up now that he thought he was allying himself with the extreme left, but a lot of pages I've finding who are arguing for one side or the other seem to be incredibly biased. I don't think either side wants to "claim" him. And who knows now what side he really thought he was on.
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« Reply #54: January 09, 2011, 07:05:58 pm »

I think that the guy is clearly delusional, probably a case of extreme paranoid schizophrenia.  That being said, I think the shape of his delusions are more in line with extremist right/Tea Party rhetoric. 

Linking to an article from folks that know a lot more about hate groups than I do.  They basically agree with my assessment (fundamentally unstable guy, delusions shaped by inflammatory rhetoric) but are able to point to much more specific influences than I could.  Interestingly, the weird ramblings on grammar didn't come out of his own mind.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/09/who-is-jared-lee-loughner/#more-5442

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« Reply #55: January 09, 2011, 07:06:46 pm »

I'm fairly sure that the Democrat party isn't supporting the protestors. Not so sure that the leaders of the party aren't happy with the anti-Bush / anti-incumbent party energy.

I suspect they condemned it if it came up. Like you say, though, the energy driving the protests would be a good political vehicle.

Quote
The BBC article was to show that the dingbats at the protests were not 1) getting much coverage 2) were not being called on their rhetoric. It could be that the reporters agree with the dingbats, or that the reporters don't consider it news worthy.

And I'll come at this from another angle. People on the left were PISSED that the anti-war protests didn't get much coverage. There was much gnashing of teeth about it because it was something that SHOULD have been covered as more than a footnote in a news cycle.


Quote
Between the specific protests I linked to, and the other protests Zombie covered, I'd say the rhetoric rises to the same level. Yes, there is a key difference between a viable canidate for VP saying such things with little blow back from her party and dingbats in SF.

**shakes head sadly**

No Peter, I'm sorry. Two or three signs at a rally in one city doesn't come anywhere near the same level as the vitriol we've seen at town halls, political rallies supporting candidates, talk radio and Fox news personalities, and certain candidates themselves. It doesn't even have the weight of a majority opinion in the Democratic Party. Most of the people you're talking about are fringe characters and that's where the Party keeps them. They haven't embraced them and made their message a main part of their thinking. The GOP has courted these people...they're not fringe; they're mainstream.

I doubt anything is going to convince you otherwise, though, and I'm not going to continue to try. When apples and oranges are the only thing you can compare, I can't agree to continue the discussion. It's just too frustrating.
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« Reply #56: January 09, 2011, 07:08:13 pm »

And who knows now what side he really thought he was on.

From what I've seen, he picked generously from the crazy tree on both sides.
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« Reply #57: January 09, 2011, 08:30:32 pm »



And it just keeps getting better.....  

Westboro Baptist Church is at it again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html

Sorry, forgot to finish my post. 
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« Reply #58: January 09, 2011, 08:37:10 pm »

And it just keeps getting better.....  

Westboro Baptist Church is at it again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html

Sorry, forgot to finish my post. 

Gah.... Just.... Ugh.

They have got to be getting close to pushing the limits of free speech... With Arizona being a concealed w/o permit state, the outcome of this protest may not be good.
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« Reply #59: January 09, 2011, 09:38:13 pm »


Not surprising -- these will get media attention that that seems to be all they need to send a few people to annoy everyone.
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