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Author Topic: HP Needing Advice  (Read 3893 times)
seleneofnight
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« Topic Start: February 07, 2011, 05:18:08 am »

I lead a small coven where there are two individuals, a male and female who so happen to be in a relationship together. The male is an old friend of mine and thus I don't seem to have many problems with him and I feel that I can discuss problems with him if I need to. The girl on the other hand is quite difficult to deal with, she believes that she should be given a higher position of power in the coven (being that she is the only female) however, she's just been practicing for like 7 months and hasn't shown herself very dedicated. They both practice some strange psychic works and often channel during rituals leaving random spirits in their bodies but never actually pick up a book and study. She has often critiqued me about how I run rituals and I can't help but get very annoyed, I don't mind hearing suggestions from someone who knows what they're talking about but from someone who hasn't even read a basic introductory book to witchcraft... :sigh:. I think that sums up the situation, I don't know what to do, I want to tell the girl that she isn't all that she thinks she is and if she doesn't actually do more book study she will have to find someone else to initiate her but then there's my old friend to consider... anyone with any advice please let me know... thanks
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« Reply #1: February 07, 2011, 06:16:28 am »

I don't know what to do, I want to tell the girl that she isn't all that she thinks she is and if she doesn't actually do more book study she will have to find someone else to initiate her but then there's my old friend to consider... anyone with any advice please let me know... thanks

Does she know what is normally expected for someone to advance, if not not advance her.  Advancing someone who does not have the basic knowledge, of the path they are on, is a serious disservice, to them, those in the group, and yourself.   

Does their channeling during rituals disrupt or affect the ritual, if so tell them to stop.  At the lease tell them they can not leave spirits in their bodies, or on this plane of existence.   
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« Reply #2: February 07, 2011, 09:09:16 am »


This sounds like a pile of crazy.  HAVE you talked to the guy, told him all the random channeling and stuff is irritating/weirding you out?  You say you can - you need to.  And you need to tell him that this isn't working.

Initiating someone you don't think is ready isn't a service to anyone.  Either it doesn't work and she thinks she's all that without anything changing, or it DOES work - and she breaks.  I wouldn't want to risk that.

If the guy won't hear it, quit being part of a coven.  You can always "not have time for it" or something.  But don't get yourself sucked into someone else's drama-crazy.
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« Reply #3: February 07, 2011, 10:24:49 am »

I don't know what to do, I want to tell the girl that she isn't all that she thinks she is and if she doesn't actually do more book study she will have to find someone else to initiate her but then there's my old friend to consider... anyone with any advice please let me know... thanks

Can you share a little more about the structure? I have some ideas, but some of them depend on some other things.

In particular:
- How many people in the coven?
- Do you have a structured set of training requirements? (And have other people gone through them successfully?)
- Are there other initiates? What do they think about these two people, and in particular, about the random channeling in ritual?
- What's the leadership structure of the group? Is it HP/HPS run, consensus-based, something else?
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« Reply #4: February 09, 2011, 08:51:27 am »

Can you share a little more about the structure? I have some ideas, but some of them depend on some other things.

In particular:
- How many people in the coven?
- Do you have a structured set of training requirements? (And have other people gone through them successfully?)
- Are there other initiates? What do they think about these two people, and in particular, about the random channeling in ritual?
- What's the leadership structure of the group? Is it HP/HPS run, consensus-based, something else?

There are a total of about six people in our coven, we are just now developing our training requirements which are no more than having a good knowledge of the craft before initiation; however if the coven feels that someone is not ready the initiation can be pushed to a later date. We have one other initiate who thinks that these two are a little... off I guess. And the coven leadership is a mix of HP / HPS run and consensus based. We chair the meetings where we discuss what we'd like to do / accomplish etc. and we lead the rituals.
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« Reply #5: February 09, 2011, 10:57:15 am »

There are a total of about six people in our coven, we are just now developing our training requirements which are no more than having a good knowledge of the craft before initiation; however if the coven feels that someone is not ready the initiation can be pushed to a later date. We have one other initiate who thinks that these two are a little... off I guess. And the coven leadership is a mix of HP / HPS run and consensus based. We chair the meetings where we discuss what we'd like to do / accomplish etc. and we lead the rituals.

Right.

I'm a huge believer in having clear standards/expectations because it avoids many of the problems you're having. I'd definitely push for figuring out what your requirements are, not only for initiation, but also for membership in the group. What's the baseline expectation of participation, etc. you have? I've included some notes from my own group practice files in case that gives you a framework, below.

On the channeling - as others have said, I'd be putting a stop to that quickly for several reasons. First, it's disruptive to your other planned work - just the same as if they were standing next to each other talking about the latest football/baseball/hockey/whatever game instead of paying attention to ritual. Second, unlike random side conversation, it does present an increased risk - for them, but also for you, in ritual terms. That's not nice to do without clear agreement from everyone involved. Having a serious talk about how this needs to stop happening, and what the consequences will be if it doesn't should be a high priority.

My experience with things like this is that people who are randomly claiming channeling in the middle of a ritual not designed for that purpose are either attention-seeking (in which case, giving them attention/changing plans to accommodate is not what you want to do), or that they are really legitimately too open to contact, and that ritual work is not a good idea for them until they get that under control. (Or at the very least, have a solid background in skills to help them manage - centering, grounding, ritual work experiences where it doesn't happen, ways to short-circuit it, etc.) Either way, random channeling not good.

Bits from my expectations/etc. files: you'll obviously want to adjust for circumstances, but I often find it easier to look at what someone else has done as a base.

(From general 'here's what we're focused on' notes)
What are the group's priorities around practice?
We gather
- grow in our relationships with the Gods (communal and personal) in polytheistic practice.
- share in experiencing the patterns and natural cycles that lead to deep understanding and self-transformation.
- develop our skills as well-rounded witches and priest/esses.
- work deeply within our shared tradition

- We celebrate the full moons and Sabbats
- We schedule for a time when people can participate. Some schedule aspects are fixed, some are more flexible.
- Each person is also expected to build their own personal practice, and to share the outline of that practice with their teachers, mentors, and with the general group. (You can decide what to share, but we will have "How do you do this at home?" conversations.)

(From the 'student information' document I'm working on: these are based on what's required in our Dedicancy oath, mostly.)
What are my obligations as a student?
- To take your studies seriously: show up for expected events, to do your best to complete homework and other assignments, to ask questions.
- To participate in rituals and other group events, and to take on responsibility for parts in those events as you learn how.
- To be forthright with us about any concerns, questions, or other things that might affect your work in the group.
- To treat everyone in the group with respect and courtesy, and a sense of give-and-take.

What are the teacher's responsibilities to the student?

- to give you the opportunity to learn
- to be clear about any expectations, limitations, etc. (ideally up front, but as they come up for certain.)
- to be consistent
- to make time available for questions, urgent needs, etc. on a reasonable basis (but not necessarily immediately.)

By the time you are considered for initiation, you should:
- Know whether you wish to make the commitments of initiation (and whether you wish to make those commitments with us in specific.)
- Be able to manage your own personal magical and ritual needs in most circumstances (cast circle, celebrate Esbats and Sabbats, etc.)
- Have the skills and ability to manage group work in a small and emotionally intimate setting.
- Know how what we do fits (generally) within the broader Pagan community.
- Be familiar with a range of introductory information about relevant topics (divination, magical systems, ritual design, etc.)
- Develop a meaningful personal practice, including deity relationships.

Some of these skills require different kinds of approaches – your training will involve reading and learning information, practicing skills (on your own and with a mentor), group and personal ritual, creative projects, but also a lot of conversation. We want to be able to talk about ongoing issues, cultural assumptions, emotional baggage, and all sorts of other things as they relate to our lives. Because of this, part of our goal with the dedicant year is to help give you the tools to have deep, meaningful, challenging conversations with others in the coven.

How is the decision for initiation made?
The decision for initiation is made by Jenett (as HPS) in consultation with other tradition elders and group members (when we have initiates.) It is based on:
- Thorough understanding of the foundational material of the tradition (using a notecard as a reminder for a particular piece is fine: not being able to explain the basics of why we do it is a problem.)
- Consistent participation in group and personal work, and connection with the work of the group.
- Review of divination, meditation, and other related sources.
- Evaluation of this particular person’s emotional readiness for a significant step and commitment.
- Desire to make a long-term energetic connection with this person.
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« Reply #6: February 09, 2011, 10:12:14 pm »

My experience with things like this is that people who are randomly claiming channeling in the middle of a ritual not designed for that purpose are either attention-seeking (in which case, giving them attention/changing plans to accommodate is not what you want to do), or that they are really legitimately too open to contact, and that ritual work is not a good idea for them until they get that under control. (Or at the very least, have a solid background in skills to help them manage - centering, grounding, ritual work experiences where it doesn't happen, ways to short-circuit it, etc.) Either way, random channeling not good.
<nodnod> Or some of both:  being genuinely very open to contact doesn't preclude being an attention-seeker.

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« Reply #7: February 09, 2011, 10:29:36 pm »

<nodnod> Or some of both:  being genuinely very open to contact doesn't preclude being an attention-seeker.

Oh, very excellent point.

The thing to note in that case is that whatever you do to solve the open-head part should not confer status on the person - in other words, it should come across (to them and the group) as "this is necessary core (but perhaps tedious) work before you can join us in ritual again" rather than "oooh, you are special, and need Extra Special Training" (which feeds the attention seeking.) This can be a tricky line to walk, but in general, doing the "stop being an open channel without warning" work in private, not mentioning it around the group in general beyond a very brief bit, etc. can help.

In the moment (someone channels unexpectedly), dealing with it very matter of factly, and sort of like a "Oops, that was a little unfortunate" can help. Sort of like a toddler or a pet misbehaving in an unexpected way: you don't lay blame, you don't insult them, you don't have a huge digression that's All About Them. You just deal with it quickly and get on with your planned thing.
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« Reply #8: February 10, 2011, 01:12:59 am »

The thing to note in that case is that whatever you do to solve the open-head part should not confer status on the person - in other words, it should come across (to them and the group) as "this is necessary core (but perhaps tedious) work before you can join us in ritual again" rather than "oooh, you are special, and need Extra Special Training" (which feeds the attention seeking.) This can be a tricky line to walk, but in general, doing the "stop being an open channel without warning" work in private, not mentioning it around the group in general beyond a very brief bit, etc. can help.

In the moment (someone channels unexpectedly), dealing with it very matter of factly, and sort of like a "Oops, that was a little unfortunate" can help. Sort of like a toddler or a pet misbehaving in an unexpected way: you don't lay blame, you don't insult them, you don't have a huge digression that's All About Them. You just deal with it quickly and get on with your planned thing.
Yep.  IME, what they're usually after is to be seen as Special People With A Rare And Special Talent.  This could be because they genuinely need the reassurance that they're an integral part of the group, and feel like they don't have enough to offer unless they have some sooperspeshul magical thing (in which case, it can be helpful to find ways to offer that reassurance that don't depend on that framing), or it could just be that they want everything to revolve around them.  Whether there are genuine insecurities and/or genuine abilities involved or not is peripheral to the core issue, which is that such behavior is toxic and can destroy the group.

Jenett's advice to be matter-of-fact about it is excellent, and should allow you to deal with this with a minimum of drama, but I'll note that that minimum may not be all that low - if those who are doing it are sufficiently invested in it, they're likely to react strongly even to matter-of-fact non-blaming.  Sometimes, you can't avert conflict, you just have to have it, deal with it, and move forward.

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« Reply #9: February 10, 2011, 07:07:20 am »

Right.

I'm a huge believer in having clear standards/expectations because it avoids many of the problems you're having. I'd definitely push for figuring out what your requirements are, not only for initiation, but also for membership in the group. What's the baseline expectation of participation, etc. you have? I've included some notes from my own group practice files in case that gives you a framework, below.

On the channeling - as others have said, I'd be putting a stop to that quickly for several reasons. First, it's disruptive to your other planned work - just the same as if they were standing next to each other talking about the latest football/baseball/hockey/whatever game instead of paying attention to ritual. Second, unlike random side conversation, it does present an increased risk - for them, but also for you, in ritual terms. That's not nice to do without clear agreement from everyone involved. Having a serious talk about how this needs to stop happening, and what the consequences will be if it doesn't should be a high priority.

My experience with things like this is that people who are randomly claiming channeling in the middle of a ritual not designed for that purpose are either attention-seeking (in which case, giving them attention/changing plans to accommodate is not what you want to do), or that they are really legitimately too open to contact, and that ritual work is not a good idea for them until they get that under control. (Or at the very least, have a solid background in skills to help them manage - centering, grounding, ritual work experiences where it doesn't happen, ways to short-circuit it, etc.) Either way, random channeling not good.

Bits from my expectations/etc. files: you'll obviously want to adjust for circumstances, but I often find it easier to look at what someone else has done as a base.

(From general 'here's what we're focused on' notes)
What are the group's priorities around practice?
We gather
- grow in our relationships with the Gods (communal and personal) in polytheistic practice.
- share in experiencing the patterns and natural cycles that lead to deep understanding and self-transformation.
- develop our skills as well-rounded witches and priest/esses.
- work deeply within our shared tradition

- We celebrate the full moons and Sabbats
- We schedule for a time when people can participate. Some schedule aspects are fixed, some are more flexible.
- Each person is also expected to build their own personal practice, and to share the outline of that practice with their teachers, mentors, and with the general group. (You can decide what to share, but we will have "How do you do this at home?" conversations.)

(From the 'student information' document I'm working on: these are based on what's required in our Dedicancy oath, mostly.)
What are my obligations as a student?
- To take your studies seriously: show up for expected events, to do your best to complete homework and other assignments, to ask questions.
- To participate in rituals and other group events, and to take on responsibility for parts in those events as you learn how.
- To be forthright with us about any concerns, questions, or other things that might affect your work in the group.
- To treat everyone in the group with respect and courtesy, and a sense of give-and-take.

What are the teacher's responsibilities to the student?

- to give you the opportunity to learn
- to be clear about any expectations, limitations, etc. (ideally up front, but as they come up for certain.)
- to be consistent
- to make time available for questions, urgent needs, etc. on a reasonable basis (but not necessarily immediately.)

By the time you are considered for initiation, you should:
- Know whether you wish to make the commitments of initiation (and whether you wish to make those commitments with us in specific.)
- Be able to manage your own personal magical and ritual needs in most circumstances (cast circle, celebrate Esbats and Sabbats, etc.)
- Have the skills and ability to manage group work in a small and emotionally intimate setting.
- Know how what we do fits (generally) within the broader Pagan community.
- Be familiar with a range of introductory information about relevant topics (divination, magical systems, ritual design, etc.)
- Develop a meaningful personal practice, including deity relationships.

Some of these skills require different kinds of approaches – your training will involve reading and learning information, practicing skills (on your own and with a mentor), group and personal ritual, creative projects, but also a lot of conversation. We want to be able to talk about ongoing issues, cultural assumptions, emotional baggage, and all sorts of other things as they relate to our lives. Because of this, part of our goal with the dedicant year is to help give you the tools to have deep, meaningful, challenging conversations with others in the coven.

How is the decision for initiation made?
The decision for initiation is made by Jenett (as HPS) in consultation with other tradition elders and group members (when we have initiates.) It is based on:
- Thorough understanding of the foundational material of the tradition (using a notecard as a reminder for a particular piece is fine: not being able to explain the basics of why we do it is a problem.)
- Consistent participation in group and personal work, and connection with the work of the group.
- Review of divination, meditation, and other related sources.
- Evaluation of this particular person’s emotional readiness for a significant step and commitment.
- Desire to make a long-term energetic connection with this person.

Thank you so much for this advice I just yesterday sat down and typed up what is expected of dedicants before initiation so there are clear guidelines. I know that I need to address the channeling... it's probably not going to be pretty, they supposedly channel gods and I'm sure "they" will be quite offended... :sigh:
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« Reply #10: February 10, 2011, 10:25:16 am »

Thank you so much for this advice I just yesterday sat down and typed up what is expected of dedicants before initiation so there are clear guidelines. I know that I need to address the channeling... it's probably not going to be pretty, they supposedly channel gods and I'm sure "they" will be quite offended... :sigh:

Yeah, they'll probably be offended. You're taking away the shiny toy that makes them feel special. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. If they're really sincere about caring about the group work, they'll get over it. If they're not sincere about honoring and respecting the group work, not just their personal interests, you're all better off with that being really clear.

(The Gods, in my experience, will not be offended. Every time we've set clear boundaries and limits on this kind of stuff, I've actually gotten a sense of "Oh, thank you" from it - for reasons touched on below. They want time to talk, but they'd *much* rather have a prepared and planned for time where they get thoughtful, gracious welcome and offerings than a random grab-bag of what's handy.)

The way my trad handles that goes like this (though I don't think we've ever spelled it out all at once like this.)

- Aspecting/channelling is a deeply important and meaningful way to interact with our Gods.

- However, it's a method that needs appropriate preparation. This is both so that we can be prepared to properly welcome and honor the deity in question, and because doing so has some risks and strains both for the person channeling *and* for the people supporting them.

- For the person aspecting, it may be unusually exhausting: if that isn't planned for, it may affect other things that are important to their well-being (driving home safely, being able to focus at work the next day, being able to do other important tasks.) It may also change their interactions and priorities in other ways, and that possibility should be taken seriously (the Gods change what they touch, after all.)

- For other people in the circle, it places additional demands on the HP, HPS, and others supporting the circle, that, again, can affect their ability to meet other obligations and commitments in the next few days. Changing the agenda and asking these people to shift gears quickly when other work has been planned also disrespects the time and energy they've put into preparing for the work that was originally intended. Sometimes something comes up, and that needs to happen - but it should be an occasional thing, not a regular unilateral demand.

- And back to the Gods in question: different deities have different preferences and requirements when aspecting. We prefer to do this work when we can prepare for that, have favorite foods, items, and other tools present, and when we can prepare properly for the surrounding ritual work.

- Aspecting is something we do in service to the community, and in service to the God in question: it should therefore also have a reason or purpose beyond 'hey, this is cool'. Doing it deliberately (and *only* deliberately) helps us make sure that's true, and respect the time, energy, and presence of the deity.

- Deities are also not the only thing out there. While we believe the majority of non-physical entities out there are not intending to be harmful directly, there are many out there that range from curious (a distraction from other planned work) to trickster (can lead people away from other intended goals for a while, take time/energy/attention to sort out). Again, preparing and being deliberate about aspecting work helps avoid these problems, and allows us to cross-check suggestions, comments, and ideas through other means more readily (divination, meditation, etc. with multiple people.)
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« Reply #11: February 10, 2011, 02:41:16 pm »



thank you very much for helping my high priest

i am the hps of the group btw lol i really appreciated you wisdom
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