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Author Topic: Theory: Morrigan and Freyja.  (Read 9540 times)
Legion
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« Topic Start: February 08, 2011, 12:59:39 pm »

Right before i get flamed. This is just a theory and it might have been on this forum already, and either way it might spark and interesting discussion.

The norse Vanir goddess Freyja. Deity of battle, love, fertility and goddess over the valkyrie "Our death angels so to say, the collectors of dead warriors to bring to either freyja's hall or odins hall "Valhalla". So far for the intro of freyja.

The valkyrie however are spoken of to apear above the battlefield as ravens. "The raven feeding on the fallen is seen as the sign a valkyrie has taken the soul" So one of the symbols for freyja is a raven.

Now after looking into basic wicca. "Trying to understand it a bit" morrigan seems to have about the same aspects as freyja. Including there being written about a raven, and the same traits as freyja.

Now i'm daring to say that this might be a link between wicca and norse paganism "And from this point on you may flame me". Is there a posibility, that freyja, is morrigan, and morrigan is freyja?

"Once again, this is only a theory i came up with, be easy on me plz"

Discuss away.

Honor and wisdom.
Legion.
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« Reply #1: February 08, 2011, 02:06:15 pm »


The norse Vanir goddess Freyja. Deity of battle, love, fertility and goddess over the valkyrie "Our death angels so to say, the collectors of dead warriors to bring to either freyja's hall or odins hall "Valhalla". So far for the intro of freyja.


I don't think it ever actually states in the historical lore that Freya is the queen of the Valkyrie. Freyja was also a Scandinavian specific deity, while the Valkyries are more Germanic.

Quote
The valkyrie however are spoken of to apear above the battlefield as ravens. "The raven feeding on the fallen is seen as the sign a valkyrie has taken the soul" So one of the symbols for freyja is a raven.


I think a big part of the raven lore, from both the heathens and the Celts, is that those birds were scavengers and literally picked at and carried off pieces of the corpse. It would seem to be a matter of nature directing myth (as stories we tell ourselves) which happened to coincide, rather then the myths being connected through one deitic source. There's also some thought that it was the women who most often went to the battlefield after a war and collected the dead, tended the wounded, etc. further adding to a battle-death maiden icon.

And..(*laughs* sorry) isn't Freya (and Frigg's) bird a falcon? As evidenced by the cloak of falcon feathers?

Quote
Now after looking into basic wicca. "Trying to understand it a bit" morrigan seems to have about the same aspects as freyja. Including there being written about a raven, and the same traits as freyja.

Now i'm daring to say that this might be a link between wicca and norse paganism "And from this point on you may flame me". Is there a posibility, that freyja, is morrigan, and morrigan is freyja?

Wicca is a fairly modern reinvention of various world myths. You'd do better looking at the similarities between classic Celticism and Heathenry.

I don't think there is much of a connection between the Morrighan and Freyja, other than the coincidences mentioned above. From my understanding, Morrighan is more of a Terrible Goddess, while Freyja is much more gentle and approachable.

There's been some question on whether Loki (who only appeared in the later Scandinavian lore) was a creation after exposure to the Celtic Lugh, but at the end of the day the personalities differ too greatly, and fit into their own cultures so specifically, that to say that they are interchangeable seems false. I think the same holds true for Morrighan and Freyja.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 02:14:27 pm by Juniperberry » Logged
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« Reply #2: February 08, 2011, 02:15:04 pm »

The norse Vanir goddess Freyja. Deity of battle, love, fertility and goddess over the valkyrie "Our death angels so to say, the collectors of dead warriors to bring to either freyja's hall or odins hall "Valhalla". So far for the intro of freyja.

I'm yet to see any primary reference to Freya as a leader of the Valkyries. She's said to get half of the fallen, yes, but nothing on leading the female host of Odin. I wonder if that's more of a modern development than an actual piece of information from the past, as indeed is argued here. She's also more associated with the falcon than with the raven, which has a greater link with the One-Eyed.

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« Reply #3: February 08, 2011, 02:18:41 pm »


I don't think it ever actually states in the historical lore that Freya is the queen of the Valkyrie. Freyja was also a Scandinavian specific deity, while the Valkyries are more Germanic.


I think a big part of the raven lore, from both the heathens and the Celts, is that those birds were scavengers and literally picked at and carried off pieces of the corpse. It would seem to be a matter of nature directing myth (as stories we tell ourselves) which happened to coincide, rather then the myths being connected through one deitic source. There's also some thought that it was the women who most often went to the battlefield after a war and collected the dead, tended the wounded, etc. furthering adding to a battle-death maiden icon.

And..(*laughs* sorry) isn't Freya (and Frigg's) bird a falcon? As evidenced by the cloak of falcon feathers?

Wicca is a fairly modern reinvention of various world myths. You'd do better looking at the similarities between classic Celticism and Heatherny.

I don't think there is much of a connection between the Morrighan and Freyja, other than the coincidences mentioned above. From my understanding, Morrighan is more of a Terrible Goddess, while Freyja is much more gentle and approachable.

There's been some question on whether Loki (who only appeared in the later Scandinavian lore) was a creation after exposure to the Celtic Lugh, but at the end of the day the personalities differ too greatly, and fit into their own cultures so specifically, that to say that they are interchangeable seems false. I think the same holds true for Morrighan and Freyja.

I really should only quote specific parts of this. But meh effort, i'm pretty sure you'll remember what you wrote lol.

Freyja is stated in the edda's as being one of the major goddesses connects to the valkyries "but only shortly, so it might be an interpretation". But you are right about the changes in character. Freyja is seen as one of the most peacefull goddesses in the norse believes. Even though she's a goddess of battle her realm mostly revolves around love.  "One of the two goddesses actually, the other being Sj÷fn. "An aesir"

I don't know the violent intent of morrigan i simply havent studied her enough for that. But if i'm going on your word she would relate faintly more to skadi "the hunt / vengeance, then gentle freyja. But even to skadi there's little reference.

I don't think  given the new information that any goddess completely matches with the ideas about morrigan. So i'll just accept them as two different entities.

Anyway like i said it was just a theory. There are some things they have in common, but as you attested, the personalities and "realms" are far too different to be the same goddess.

Thanks for your reply.

Honor and wisdom.
Legion.

P.s. i saw another reply after the one i replied too here, i have read your reply aswell, thanks for responding.
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« Reply #4: February 08, 2011, 02:21:31 pm »

I'm yet to see any primary reference to Freya as a leader of the Valkyries. She's said to get half of the fallen, yes, but nothing on leading the female host of Odin. I wonder if that's more of a modern development than an actual piece of information from the past, as indeed is argued here. She's also more associated with the falcon than with the raven, which has a greater link with the One-Eyed.

Helio

Aye good point, Huginn and muninn well known ravens from norse myths. If i remember correctly them plus odin form a triangle, Huginn: (Though) Muninn: (Memory) and Odin: (Amongst other things, god of wisdom.) Though, memory, wisdom. It makes sense.

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« Reply #5: February 08, 2011, 02:24:26 pm »

I really should only quote specific parts of this. But meh effort, i'm pretty sure you'll remember what you wrote lol.

Freyja is stated in the edda's as being one of the major goddesses connects to the valkyries "but only shortly, so it might be an interpretation". But you are right about the changes in character. Freyja is seen as one of the most peacefull goddesses in the norse believes. Even though she's a goddess of battle her realm mostly revolves around love.  "One of the two goddesses actually, the other being Sj÷fn. "An aesir"

Well...no. The Edda says:

14. The ninth is Folkvang, | where Freyja decrees
Who shall have seats in the hall;
The half of the dead | each day does she choose,
And half does Othin have.


There's really no mention of Freyja being connected to the Valkyrie. Heliotrope posted a good article, and I just read a comment elsewhere that the confusion seems to stem from Wagner's opera.

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« Reply #6: February 08, 2011, 05:21:48 pm »




Speaking as a person that makes offerings to both, and has thought about this issue before; I don't know for sure, but won't pretend I'll ever be able to know for sure. I wouldn't feel right speaking on their behalf.

When one tries to compare and contrast both on the basis of lore, of course differences will become visible. That said, the contrasts could be credited to the cultural differences between the people(s) attempting to make tales about them. Include with that whatever bias the people that recorded the tales down on paper, and the translators throughout history. As much as we don't like to think it; nothing can ever be completely translated right, when it's over a span of hundreds of years through languages that are always evolving.

I'm not trying to negate the value of the lore, I'm just throwing that fact out there. However, when one tries to go off of their UPG (unverifiable personal gnosis), one has to be even more careful and willing to self-edit, than they have to be with the lore! It would be too easy to say "I believe they are the same" or "I believe they are different," and start telling everyone else that is the one truth. Part of worshiping the divine should be the constant self realization that it is not for humanity to know everything, no matter how special we may think ourselves to be.

Now, for the sake of the question, I personally worship them as two different entities. Part of the reasoning for that is I've been attempting to build up a faith and life structure that would in some ways honor my ancestors long past. This has come to include A LOT of otherwise contradictory things since I (like many other people) come from many different backgrounds, such as somehow learning how to honor the Norse and Celtic deities, while attempting to learn a little about the Apache way of life, and somehow reconciling the Christian AND Jewish philosophies. For this purpose of mine, there is no perfect answer, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else doing it, unless they thought of doing it before learning I do it.

I've been trying to do what I can to pay as proper homage to these different deities and ways of being as I can. While it may sound like I've been trying to do this just because of some "My Generation" fad, I've been really worried over the past years of this offending the deities. Since I've been trying to keep it as true as I can for what they and their original followers may have been (and still keep finding ways to improve upon my purpose), I think they're a bit more lenient as long as I specifically let other people know what I've been doing first. With that said, I can't say for sure they are different entities. For all I know, maybe all theologies and gods and goddesses come from the same source, that is just merciful enough to answer us no matter what name we call it. OR, maybe all these different Gods, Goddesses, spiritual beings of all sorts that are said to interact with people, exist as different sentient beings. All I know is my prayers get answered, and I'm happy enough to leave it at that.

Another way to I guess to visualize what I'm doing, is this: I come from many different peoples and social groups. However, one of those groups happens to include in extended family Germans from the WWII era. While I know ethnic cleansing of any kind is wrong, I have to somehow come to terms with part of the family I am attempting to honor comes from Nazi Germany. This is made harder from the fact that supposedly my grandpa's grandma in the U.S. was Jewish, and supposedly Israeli at that (I have no documents or heirlooms from her to verify this though). I can't just say "they're evil, and I'm good" because that is what Hitler would have said. So I take the differences for what they are, and attempt to find correlating things, while honoring the positive influences that I know of as best I can, and attempting to make amends for any of the things that I can't personally agree with. I include this, because I feel this is the same thing I'm doing for the spiritual / "theology" part of my life.

As for what I do with my faith: I've got the Havamal to read, the book of Proverbs from the old testament, the book of John (read figuratively, and since I'm still yet to find anything concrete for Celtic ideology, I've got an "inspirational" prayer book that I have been trying to follow as well.

A LONG answer to your question, but I hope it explains why I do worship them, and don't have a concrete answer to give you.    Smiley
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« Reply #7: February 08, 2011, 06:14:39 pm »

Right before i get flamed. This is just a theory and it might have been on this forum already, and either way it might spark and interesting discussion.

The norse Vanir goddess Freyja. Deity of battle, love, fertility and goddess over the valkyrie "Our death angels so to say, the collectors of dead warriors to bring to either freyja's hall or odins hall "Valhalla". So far for the intro of freyja.

The valkyrie however are spoken of to apear above the battlefield as ravens. "The raven feeding on the fallen is seen as the sign a valkyrie has taken the soul" So one of the symbols for freyja is a raven.

Now after looking into basic wicca. "Trying to understand it a bit" morrigan seems to have about the same aspects as freyja. Including there being written about a raven, and the same traits as freyja.

I've noticed that in your posts in this thread, you are using quotation marks as though you are trying to cite a source.  However, since you are not citing any sources, I'm left wondering why the quotation marks are there.
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« Reply #8: February 08, 2011, 06:44:42 pm »


Now after looking into basic wicca. "Trying to understand it a bit" morrigan seems to have about the same aspects as freyja. Including there being written about a raven, and the same traits as freyja.

Now i'm daring to say that this might be a link between wicca and norse paganism "And from this point on you may flame me". Is there a posibility, that freyja, is morrigan, and morrigan is freyja?

I'm not flaming, just wondering where on earth you got the idea that the Morrigan's roots, which stretch back to pre-Christian times, are in Wicca, which didn't exist before the twentieth century.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 06:57:39 pm by Melamphoros, Reason: fixing quote code » Logged

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« Reply #9: February 08, 2011, 08:25:03 pm »

I'm not flaming, just wondering where on earth you got the idea that the Morrigan's roots, which stretch back to pre-Christian times, are in Wicca, which didn't exist before the twentieth century.

Perhaps i should have named it Celtic. Wicca is indeed post christianity. Oh well, i guess i'll just slap myself in the face again.

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« Reply #10: February 08, 2011, 08:52:53 pm »

I've noticed that in your posts in this thread, you are using quotation marks as though you are trying to cite a source.  However, since you are not citing any sources, I'm left wondering why the quotation marks are there.

I think he may be confusing quotation marks with parentheses.

As far as Morrigan / Freya I think it's safe to say they're very much separate.

I think the confusion can arise when one uses a Wiccan perspective I.E. that all gods are faces of the god aspect and same with any goddess. I'm not saying this is invalid but can lead to confusion and debate.
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« Reply #11: February 08, 2011, 10:35:52 pm »

As far as Morrigan / Freya I think it's safe to say they're very much separate.

Agreed -- very much separate, both in mythology and in my (limited) experience with both of them.
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