Gods for FlameKeepers

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[Altair]

I've said it before, I'll say it again - I certainly hope they're not mutually exclusive, or I'm even crazier than I thought.

Well, as the Religion label to the left indicates, I consider myself a pantheistic polytheist, so if you're crazy, I'm crazy too.

Using Blue's definitions offered above, I fit both pantheist and polytheist, with one modification: Blue's definition of polytheist requires deities to be transcendent, which I don't buy. My gods are metaphors for grand forces and concepts that run through and around and define everyone and everything; while these forces/concepts (time, space, matter, energy, life, death, thought, the unknown...) are hard for the human mind to fully appreciate (if they weren't, we wouldn't need metaphors to get a handle on them), they are definitely real and an integral part of the manifest divine, right here, right now.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

Well, as the Religion label to the left indicates, I consider myself a pantheistic polytheist, so if you're crazy, I'm crazy too.

Using Blue's definitions offered above, I fit both pantheist and polytheist, with one modification: Blue's definition of polytheist requires deities to be transcendent, which I don't buy. My gods are metaphors for grand forces and concepts that run through and around and define everyone and everything; while these forces/concepts (time, space, matter, energy, life, death, thought, the unknown...) are hard for the human mind to fully appreciate (if they weren't, we wouldn't need metaphors to get a handle on them), they are definitely real and an integral part of the manifest divine, right here, right now.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

I think we're running into the problem of what the word "god" means anyway - in the West, it's got a pretty clear omni-omni type definition, and talking about gods that don't meet that level of uberness gets things .. weird.

If god means must be transcendent, then I do not really believe in gods - THAT kind of god. ... the ones I DO believe in, OTOH, would be pretty darn pissed at me if I either claimed they didn't exist or couldn't be gods because someone else's definition said so!

[Ellen M.]

If god means must be transcendent, then I do not really believe in gods - THAT kind of god. ... the ones I DO believe in, OTOH, would be pretty darn pissed at me if I either claimed they didn't exist or couldn't be gods because someone else's definition said so!

I definitely agree. If there are omni-transcendent deities, I've got better things to do than try to make sense of them.

I am a quasi-pantheist. I believe that while the whole universe is sacred and may be linked together on a spiritual level, it's more like the Dao/Force than anything else. It is NOT sentient - it is NOT conscious. It just is. So I call myself a quasi-pantheist because I believe in the pan, but not necessarily the theism behind it.

I'm also a polytheist (hard, with a few exceptions - sometimes the gods are just really wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey and categories are useless) with the belief that humans, gods, ancestors, spirits, animals, etc. are all part of the spiritual ecosystem within the Dao/Force/whatever. Not everything is conscious, but everything is tied in this force.

[Altair]

I am a quasi-pantheist. I believe that while the whole universe is sacred and may be linked together on a spiritual level, it's more like the Dao/Force than anything else. It is NOT sentient - it is NOT conscious. It just is.

As a full-on pantheist, I agree. It just is.

In this I'm mindful of scale. While a concept like sentience makes sense for us and species like us, it probably makes absolutely no sense in considering a universe. A single nerve cell, with its simple electrochemical impulses, cannot begin to envision what a human being's sentience is; similarly, if the universe has some sort of awareness, it's so far beyond sentience that we can't even envision what that might be. Ascribing sentience to the universe is quaint, a little bit of comforting anthropomorphism to help us get a handle on things we can't possibly imagine.

I think that to the extent the universe may have some sort of awareness, that awareness is us. We are an integral part of the manifest divine, and we are sentient, therefore the universe is sentient to some extent. ("We are a way for the universe to know itself" --Carl Sagan)

Or to look at it another way, consider our local scale: our own planet, a manifest, living goddess. We are the nerve cells of Her "brain", individually just sentient; but collectively, our history is Her memory, our cultures the facets of Her personality. This is no doubt hopelessly simplistic. But it helps me realize how a concept like sentience is irrelevant for a universe.

The most we can say about the universe is: it just is.

[Ellen M.]

The most we can say about the universe is: it just is.

Exactly. I think for me, consciousness is so tied up with personhood and personhood so tied up with being a deity, to me ascribing consciousness (the way I understand it, or the way I understand, say, Brighid to have it) is too similar to the idea of a transcendental God/dess deity to merit a distinct category. (Just in how I perceive things; I certainly grok the difference between pantheism and transcendental deism, at least on an intellectual level, but emotionally and spiritually there's too much gray area in there for my liking.)

[SunflowerP]

I think that to the extent the universe may have some sort of awareness, that awareness is us. We are an integral part of the manifest divine, and we are sentient, therefore the universe is sentient to some extent. ("We are a way for the universe to know itself" --Carl Sagan)

Yes, yes, YES!!!

I've never felt like pantheism required a belief in the sentience/consciouness of That Which Is.  I take the "-theism" part to refer to its divinity, rather than to it being a sentient entity.  So I don't consider there to be anything "quasi" about your pantheism, Ellen.

I agree with Shad that the "definition of 'god'" problem is very much in play here - I'd say that I struggle with that issue all the time, except that mostly I don't struggle; I take my deity-type people as I find them and don't much worry about whether they fit some person or another's standards of godhood.  But I sure can struggle with communicating about it.

Sunflower

[Tana]

I agree with Shad that the "definition of 'god'" problem is very much in play here - I'd say that I struggle with that issue all the time, except that mostly I don't struggle; I take my deity-type people as I find them and don't much worry about whether they fit some person or another's standards of godhood.  But I sure can struggle with communicating about it.

*nods*

[Darkhawk]

I think that to the extent the universe may have some sort of awareness, that awareness is us. We are an integral part of the manifest divine, and we are sentient, therefore the universe is sentient to some extent. ("We are a way for the universe to know itself" --Carl Sagan)

"The universe is the inside without an outside, the sound made by one eye opening. In fact, I don't even know that there is a universe. More likely, there are many multiverses, each with its own dimensions, times, spaces, laws and eccentricities. We wander between and among these multiverses, trying to convince others and ourselves that we walk together in a single public universe that we can share. For to deny that axiom leads to what is called schizoprhenia. Yeah, that's it: every man's skin is his own private multiverse, just like every man's home is supposed to be his castle. But all the multiverses are trying to merge, to create a true universe such as we have only imagined previously. Maybe it will be spiritual, like Zen or telepathy, or maybe it will be physical, one great big gang-fuck, but it has to happen: the creation of a universe and the one great eye opening to see itself at last. Aum Shiva!"
-- Illuminatus!, by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson

[Ellen M.]

I've never felt like pantheism required a belief in the sentience/consciouness of That Which Is.  I take the "-theism" part to refer to its divinity, rather than to it being a sentient entity.  So I don't consider there to be anything "quasi" about your pantheism, Ellen.

Thank you. You hit the nail on the head - I've been distinguishing between divinity and deity for awhile, and I always thought it would be too messy to properly explain. Glad to hear we're on the same wavelength.

[veggiewolf]

Yes, yes, YES!!!
...
I agree with Shad that the "definition of 'god'" problem is very much in play here - I'd say that I struggle with that issue all the time, except that mostly I don't struggle; I take my deity-type people as I find them and don't much worry about whether they fit some person or another's standards of godhood.  But I sure can struggle with communicating about it.

Sunflower

Another big nod here.

[blue]

I've said it before, I'll say it again - I certainly hope they're not mutually exclusive, or I'm even crazier than I thought.

i haven't read all of the other posts (i get the feeling they might all run along the lines posted above), but i maintain that one cannot be a pantheist and a polytheist.

polytheist=many divinities
pantheist=one divinity

that being said, i respect your view.

[blue]

Well, as the Religion label to the left indicates, I consider myself a pantheistic polytheist, so if you're crazy, I'm crazy too.

Using Blue's definitions offered above, I fit both pantheist and polytheist, with one modification: Blue's definition of polytheist requires deities to be transcendent, which I don't buy. My gods are metaphors for grand forces and concepts that run through and around and define everyone and everything; while these forces/concepts (time, space, matter, energy, life, death, thought, the unknown...) are hard for the human mind to fully appreciate (if they weren't, we wouldn't need metaphors to get a handle on them), they are definitely real and an integral part of the manifest divine, right here, right now.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

well, this then means that you are not a "hard" or "true" polytheist. if "gods" are merely symbols for things and not "gods" then, you are not a polytheist.

[blue]

Another big nod here.

i see (and understand). in effect, you are not really "hard" polytheists or pantheists, but a sort of blend.

i do not see divinity as an entity of any sort. divinity is all that exists. i don't put a name or face to, say, justice for example.

i suppose, as i've said, i'm simply not a flamekeeper. but, i think it's a fascinating concept.

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

well, this then means that you are not a "hard" or "true" polytheist. if "gods" are merely symbols for things and not "gods" then, you are not a polytheist.

Do you realize how insanely offensive it is to have someone else "educating" us on our OWN RELIGION?  Don't you think people that actually live it - whatever it is - have a better idea about what they believe than someone going off a couple of forum posts?

How is what you're doing different from someone saying that if you're not Christian you're a Satanist and you just don't know it?

Really.  SERIOUSLY offensive.  How can you know more than me about MY OWN RELIGION?

[blue]

Do you realize how insanely offensive it is to have someone else "educating" us on our OWN RELIGION?  Don't you think people that actually live it - whatever it is - have a better idea about what they believe than someone going off a couple of forum posts?

How is what you're doing different from someone saying that if you're not Christian you're a Satanist and you just don't know it?

Really.  SERIOUSLY offensive.  How can you know more than me about MY OWN RELIGION?

woah...woah...i'm not educating anyone. i'm a pantheist and i have questions since your path claims to be pantheistic.

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