The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
April 07, 2020, 08:56:47 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 07, 2020, 08:56:47 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Coven astrologers...share your observations  (Read 10820 times)
Beachglass
Master Member
****
Last Login:August 22, 2013, 12:19:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Nonspecific Pagan-Leaning
Posts: 489


Blog entries (10)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #15: June 19, 2007, 11:58:26 am »

You need to think about the examples you use to prove your point.  Creationism is a theory.  It is taught for political reasons, but it SHOULD be taught as a competing theory.  Evolution is also a theory.  Most people believe in it.

Umm, likewise?  Gravity is also a "theory."  Creationism is really more of a hypothesis, I would say, and not even a testable one at that.
Logged

"the further we go and older we grow the more we know the less we show"

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Sunny Dawn
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:August 28, 2007, 02:48:31 pm
United States United States

Religion: Pagan
Posts: 97

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #16: June 19, 2007, 12:03:44 pm »

Umm, likewise?  Gravity is also a "theory."  Creationism is really more of a hypothesis, I would say, and not even a testable one at that.

You know, I happen to agree with this, but in practice creationism is taught as a competing theory.
Logged
Star
Message Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:January 12, 2013, 08:36:08 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Reconstructionist
TCN ID: star
Posts: 9033


Etcetera, Whatever

Blog entries (0)

ilaynay starcr
WWW
« Reply #17: June 19, 2007, 12:06:25 pm »

Sure, you can, and we do it all the time. But you also have to give a fair hearing to what you disagree with.

Not actually.  People can form and express their own opinions regardless of giving fair hearings or doing personal research.  Some may disagree that these opinions are well-advised, but there isn't any kind of central authority sitting around handing out permission to hold or express opinions based on whether they're well-founded or not.

Quote
Sure, if all you want is an opinion for a message board.  Not if you're doing science.

At the moment that's all any of this discussion is in the first place.  Opinions on a message board.

Quote
I guess my curiosity is:  Why are people who are open to the Tarot so hostile to astrology?  No divination system has an empirical foundation. So why do some divination systems enjoy greater respect from the magical community than others? 

I don't have an answer for you per se (although this is an interesting question), but at least here at TC, I would encourage you not to confuse thinking something doesn't work with being hostile toward it.
Logged

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced."
-- Aart Van Der Leeuw

Main Blog:  Star's Journal of Random Thoughts
Religious Blog:  The Song and the Flame
I can also now be found on Goodreads.
Thorn
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 05, 2012, 07:09:15 pm
United States United States

Religion: Ecclectic pagan
Posts: 838


Avatar by sp-studio.com

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #18: June 19, 2007, 12:09:54 pm »

I guess my curiosity is:  Why are people who are open to the Tarot so hostile to astrology?  No divination system has an empirical foundation. So why do some divination systems enjoy greater respect from the magical community than others? 
I'm guessing that it has to do with the type of divination system.  You've basically got two types:  random (tarot, I Ching, runes and the like) and fixed (astrology, numerology.)  (Scrying could be a third type, I suppose, but in my mind it functions similarly to the "random" divination methods.)

Just because you can accept that one type works doesn't mean you'll accept the other. 

I think many people are far more comfortable with the random sort of divination because can be seen as your own intuition/subconscious/higher consciousness/whatever doing the divining with the tool as a catalyst.  This is easier for many to accept than the idea that your entire future can be determined by the time you were born or by what your parents happened to chose for your name.

Personally, I've never really gotten into astrology for divination - too much math!  But I've found that natal charts are usually really good for giving my insights into people's personalities.
Logged
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #19: June 19, 2007, 12:18:29 pm »

You need to think about the examples you use to prove your point.  Creationism is a theory.  It is taught for political reasons, but it SHOULD be taught as a competing theory.  Evolution is also a theory.  Most people believe in it.  But evolution has some significant gaps and flaws - it is far from a perfect theory.  Evolution depends upon the spontaneous materialization of DNA and RNA - this is a big gap that a lot of scientists take issue with.  If creationism doesn't work, evolution may not "work" either.

Erm.  No.  Evolution has been observed in action.  There are things which we might not know yet, but it offers ideas that give information to other branches of science, it is internally consistent, and it does other things that science does and creationism doesn't.

Tarot doesn't claim to be science.  If you want us to take your arguments seriously, you can't mix them.  If it's science, it doesn't compare to Tarot.  it compares to astronomy.  and there, it falls down.

(oh yeah. and it's the THEORY of gravity and the THEORY of relativity.  gonna attack them next as maybe not true?)
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
Beachglass
Master Member
****
Last Login:August 22, 2013, 12:19:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Nonspecific Pagan-Leaning
Posts: 489


Blog entries (10)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #20: June 19, 2007, 12:19:02 pm »

You know, I happen to agree with this, but in practice creationism is taught as a competing theory.

Yes, but my point was, calling creationism a theory misunderstands or misrepresents what a theory is in scientific terms.  It's a different usage from the way that people use it colloquially.  Creationism absolutely should not be taught as a competing theory, because it is untestable and thus not a theory at all.  It does not belong in science class.  Evolution is taught not only because it is a testable theory, but because a huge body of evidence supports it.

Just because a bunch of people start saying that the world was made by a flying spaghetti monster or whatever, doesn't mean we have to "give it a fair hearing."  It is not testable and thus unscientific.  Possibly even right, but unscientific nonetheless.
Logged

"the further we go and older we grow the more we know the less we show"
Purplewitch
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 03, 2009, 02:04:40 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: kitchenWitch with Celtic Condiments
Posts: 1621


Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #21: June 19, 2007, 12:22:43 pm »

Creationism absolutely should not be taught as a competing theory, because it is untestable and thus not a theory at all.  It does not belong in science class. 

Whether it should or shouldn't be, it's my understanding that in certain places (in the U.S - I have no idea about anywhere else...)it IS taught as such - I'm hoping someone will tell me if I'm wrong?
Logged

EverFool
Board Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 16, 2011, 12:40:01 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: atheist
Posts: 2960


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #22: June 19, 2007, 12:22:53 pm »


You need to think about the examples you use to prove your point.  Creationism is a theory.  It is taught for political reasons, but it SHOULD be taught as a competing theory.

Actually Creationism is more of a hypothesis.  The term 'theory' is best reserved for those hypothesis that have been proved repeatedly over time.  But anyway: Why should Creationism be taught as a *science* when there is no evidence to suggest that life on Earth was created?


Quote
I guess my curiosity is:  Why are people who are open to the Tarot so hostile to astrology?  No divination system has an empirical foundation. So why do some divination systems enjoy greater respect from the magical community than others? 

Personally I don't put a great deal of stock in divination...but I guess some of the difference in reactions is going to be in style, presentation, and the way ideas are expressed.  For example, astrology suggests that people are controlled by floating lumps of rock in space.  Tarot attempts to look at possible futures, so that people can work towards the one they favour.  But rarely are people told 'because someone drew X card, women presidents aren't gonna happen.'  Those 'authoritative' and broad claims seem to be more common with astrology.
Logged

If anal prolapse teaches us anything, it's that it is what is inside that counts.
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #23: June 19, 2007, 12:24:38 pm »

Whether it should or shouldn't be, it's my understanding that in certain places (in the U.S - I have no idea about anywhere else...)it IS taught as such - I'm hoping someone will tell me if I'm wrong?

There are places, yes, where it's taught as *real*.

and then we wonder why our test scores suck ass.  *rolls eyes*
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
Beachglass
Master Member
****
Last Login:August 22, 2013, 12:19:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Nonspecific Pagan-Leaning
Posts: 489


Blog entries (10)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #24: June 19, 2007, 12:25:39 pm »

Whether it should or shouldn't be, it's my understanding that in certain places (in the U.S - I have no idea about anywhere else...)it IS taught as such - I'm hoping someone will tell me if I'm wrong?

Look up the Kansas Board of Education.  Remove all sharp objects from the vicinity first.  Tongue
Logged

"the further we go and older we grow the more we know the less we show"
Purplewitch
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 03, 2009, 02:04:40 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: kitchenWitch with Celtic Condiments
Posts: 1621


Blog entries (2)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #25: June 19, 2007, 12:26:47 pm »

Look up the Kansas Board of Education.  Remove all sharp objects from the vicinity first.  Tongue

I'm gonna resist the urge - even without sharp objects I can be dangerous lol
Logged

EverFool
Board Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 16, 2011, 12:40:01 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: atheist
Posts: 2960


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #26: June 19, 2007, 12:29:05 pm »

I'm guessing that it has to do with the type of divination system.  You've basically got two types:  random (tarot, I Ching, runes and the like) and fixed (astrology, numerology.)  (Scrying could be a third type, I suppose, but in my mind it functions similarly to the "random" divination methods.)

Just because you can accept that one type works doesn't mean you'll accept the other. 

I think many people are far more comfortable with the random sort of divination because can be seen as your own intuition/subconscious/higher consciousness/whatever doing the divining with the tool as a catalyst.  This is easier for many to accept than the idea that your entire future can be determined by the time you were born or by what your parents happened to chose for your name.

Thank you, Thorn.  This expresses quite a bit of what I was thinking about, but probably didn't say well.  I can see Tarot as being reflexive to people and situations, but planets just do their thing.  I also fail to see how a planet actually *causes* anything.  (thought for the day: If we nuked Saturn into space debris, would people stop dying? :p )
Logged

If anal prolapse teaches us anything, it's that it is what is inside that counts.
Thorn
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:September 05, 2012, 07:09:15 pm
United States United States

Religion: Ecclectic pagan
Posts: 838


Avatar by sp-studio.com

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #27: June 19, 2007, 12:43:28 pm »

Thank you, Thorn.  This expresses quite a bit of what I was thinking about, but probably didn't say well.  I can see Tarot as being reflexive to people and situations, but planets just do their thing.  I also fail to see how a planet actually *causes* anything.  (thought for the day: If we nuked Saturn into space debris, would people stop dying? :p )

The way I think of it, the planets don't actually cause anything, but the pattern of their movement happens to reflect certain patterns of human behavior.  It's an acausal connection.  To simplify Jung's synchronicity theory (hypothesis?  Wink) beyond all recognition:  "Coincidences happen."
Logged
nigel
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:May 10, 2010, 10:44:56 pm
United States United States

Religion: Seeking
Posts: 767


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #28: June 19, 2007, 12:47:44 pm »

Evolution depends upon the spontaneous materialization of DNA and RNA - this is a big gap that a lot of scientists take issue with.  If creationism doesn't work, evolution may not "work" either.

No, I doubt that scientists have a problem with this part. DNA and RNA are strands of amino acids made of Carbon, and there was an experiment done in that they simulated early conditions of the earth and guess what organic molecules were spontaneously created. Don't take my word for it though, http://tinyurl.com/2hpgkq 
Logged

----------------------------------------------
I'm a naughty monkey
Darkhawk
Chief Mux Wizard
Staff
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:January 20, 2020, 08:24:45 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Feri Discordian
Posts: 2485

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #29: June 19, 2007, 01:32:40 pm »

You need to think about the examples you use to prove your point.  Creationism is a theory.  It is taught for political reasons, but it SHOULD be taught as a competing theory.  Evolution is also a theory.  Most people believe in it.  But evolution has some significant gaps and flaws - it is far from a perfect theory.  Evolution depends upon the spontaneous materialization of DNA and RNA - this is a big gap that a lot of scientists take issue with.  If creationism doesn't work, evolution may not "work" either.

Since other people have covered the point that creationism is untestable and has no predictive value and thus is completely unqualified to be considered a scientific theory, I will note for completeness that the claim that abiogenesis is in any way related to the theory of evolution is pure creationist propaganda.
Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Creating your own tradition/coven... « 1 2 »
Paganism For Beginners
LYKOURGOS 21 8387 Last post June 20, 2007, 04:36:42 pm
by Mandi
Coven experience? « 1 2 3 4 »
Paganism For Beginners
Allstar 53 16525 Last post October 05, 2007, 03:25:12 pm
by Jenett
Paganism and Buddhism - Thoughts and Observations Please
Paganism For Beginners
zeorin 9 2761 Last post March 11, 2008, 11:11:49 am
by NeedleSpell
Locating A Coven
Social Discussion Boards
Icarus Revnant 9 3498 Last post March 17, 2009, 09:43:29 am
by savatage
Do you prefer coven or solitary? (wicca) « 1 2 3 »
Paganism For Beginners
fatalperfection 34 11968 Last post June 11, 2009, 12:02:34 pm
by Kittiann
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.067 seconds with 51 queries.