Ask a Guru! ;) (FlameKeeping)

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[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

For all those questions you've always wanted to ask - here's the place!  What questions do you have about FlameKeeping?  what seems petty and stupid, but you really want to know?  What's important that I haven't addressed?  .... what do you just want to ask because I'm giving y'all the opportunity?

If it's religiously based, I'll answer.  If it's personal, I reserve the right to tell you to bugger off.   But here's the chance - ask a FlameKeeping guru!

[Selegna]

If it's religiously based, I'll answer.  If it's personal, I reserve the right to tell you to bugger off.   But here's the chance - ask a FlameKeeping guru!

Ok, here's a question, because I'm a little confused about this: is FlameKeeping a pantheist or a panentheist religion? I've read it's pantheist, but in the description of the SIG it says: "FlameKeepers believe that the Universe is divine and greater than the sum of it’s parts." Isn't that panentheism instead of pantheism? 

I don't think it's personal, but feel free to tell me to bugger off.

[darashand]

Ok, here's a question, because I'm a little confused about this: is FlameKeeping a pantheist or a panentheist religion? I've read it's pantheist, but in the description of the SIG it says: "FlameKeepers believe that the Universe is divine and greater than the sum of it’s parts." Isn't that panentheism instead of pantheism? 

I don't think it's personal, but feel free to tell me to bugger off.

Sounds like Gestalt psychology.  

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

Ok, here's a question, because I'm a little confused about this: is FlameKeeping a pantheist or a panentheist religion? I've read it's pantheist, but in the description of the SIG it says: "FlameKeepers believe that the Universe is divine and greater than the sum of it’s parts." Isn't that panentheism instead of pantheism? 

I don't think it's personal, but feel free to tell me to bugger off.

Personally, I think it's a bizarre distinction - I mean, I also believe HUMANS are more than the sum of their parts!  So the Universe is too.  Pantheism/Panentheism .. eh.  Close enough to the same thing to me.

Others might argue, I'm really not picky on that one.

[SunflowerP]

Personally, I think it's a bizarre distinction - I mean, I also believe HUMANS are more than the sum of their parts!  So the Universe is too.  Pantheism/Panentheism .. eh.  Close enough to the same thing to me.

Others might argue, I'm really not picky on that one.

Speaking as someone who isn't a FlameKeeper (which is why I waited until you'd responded, Shad) but who is a pantheist and definitely not panentheist, I don't think they're the same thing, and I'd say that FlameKeeping's take on this is definitely more pantheistic.  What distinguishes panentheism is that the Divine not only constitutes the Universe, but exists beyond it.  I don't think "greater than the sum of its parts" necessarily implies anything beyond/outside; just that being the Universe, a cohesive and interacting whole, makes it greater than it would be if (very hypothetically) the parts were separate (otherwise, one'd have to parse the description to "the Universe is greater than the Universe" - no, it's Universe All The Way Down ).  The "negative spaces", the interactions and connections between the parts, are just as relevant as the parts themselves.

I may be projecting my own theories/beliefs here, but it seems to me that your stance is more, "There is no outside; it's all Universe."

Sunflower

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

Speaking as someone who isn't a FlameKeeper (which is why I waited until you'd responded, Shad) but who is a pantheist and definitely not panentheist, I don't think they're the same thing, and I'd say that FlameKeeping's take on this is definitely more pantheistic.  What distinguishes panentheism is that the Divine not only constitutes the Universe, but exists beyond it.  I don't think "greater than the sum of its parts" necessarily implies anything beyond/outside; just that being the Universe, a cohesive and interacting whole, makes it greater than it would be if (very hypothetically) the parts were separate (otherwise, one'd have to parse the description to "the Universe is greater than the Universe" - no, it's Universe All The Way Down ).  The "negative spaces", the interactions and connections between the parts, are just as relevant as the parts themselves.

I may be projecting my own theories/beliefs here, but it seems to me that your stance is more, "There is no outside; it's all Universe."

Sunflower

Yes.  What she said.

If there IS an outside the Universe (which seems to be likely from current theories in physics) that would be something *else*.  Unless the Divine is the multiverse, which is theoretically possible but still self-contained.  (honestly, the physics involved with multiverse stuff REALLY makes my head hurt!)

But whatever there is, it's self-contained.  There is no extra part outside.  Like humans - we're more than the sum of our parts, but we don't have an extra part *over there*!

[Selegna]

Yes.  What she said.

If there IS an outside the Universe (which seems to be likely from current theories in physics) that would be something *else*.  Unless the Divine is the multiverse, which is theoretically possible but still self-contained.  (honestly, the physics involved with multiverse stuff REALLY makes my head hurt!)

But whatever there is, it's self-contained.  There is no extra part outside.  Like humans - we're more than the sum of our parts, but we don't have an extra part *over there*!

Thanks HeartShadow and Sunflower! Distinction clear now. I still don't know where I'm standing about this, but for what I've read until now, FlameKeeping sums up my beliefs very well. I need to figure out the pantheism/panentheism thing though. I'll keep on reading about that.

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

Thanks HeartShadow and Sunflower! Distinction clear now. I still don't know where I'm standing about this, but for what I've read until now, FlameKeeping sums up my beliefs very well. I need to figure out the pantheism/panentheism thing though. I'll keep on reading about that.

glad I was able to help!  Feel free to ask anything else you like too.

For example, my current sock color is yellow, pink, orange, and red with tiny blue and green stripes in there too.

[Selegna]

glad I was able to help!  Feel free to ask anything else you like too.

For example, my current sock color is yellow, pink, orange, and red with tiny blue and green stripes in there too.

Awesome! I'm a fan of striped socks. I love them!

[FierFlye]

In the Divine Relations http://www.flamekeeping.org/?p=19 essay, you say:

Our relationship with the Divine is complex. All that we are is of the Divine, as the Divine is the entire Universe. However, our own ego and masks block us from the Divine, leaving it a thread that runs through us but not our entire personality.

These statements seem contradictory. If the Divine thread does not permeate our entire personality, does that mean that some parts of our personality are NOT of the Divine? Can you explain?

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

In the Divine Relations http://www.flamekeeping.org/?p=19 essay, you say:

These statements seem contradictory. If the Divine thread does not permeate our entire personality, does that mean that some parts of our personality are NOT of the Divine? Can you explain?

Oooh, a tricky one!

It's not so much that parts of us aren't Divine as that we are masters of self-delusion.  In every direction.

Just because we're Divine doesn't mean we recognize it, like it, or approve of it.  And all of that can get in the way of dealing with (what I see as) reality.

[veggiewolf]

Oooh, a tricky one!

It's not so much that parts of us aren't Divine as that we are masters of self-delusion.  In every direction.

Just because we're Divine doesn't mean we recognize it, like it, or approve of it.  And all of that can get in the way of dealing with (what I see as) reality.

How does a FlameKeeper overcome the self-delusion?

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

How does a FlameKeeper overcome the self-delusion?

baby steps, one at a time.

First we recognize the fact that we're all interconnected.  Then we try to live that way.  Then we fail, and pick ourselves up, and try again.

We also have to recognize our self-delusions in just about everything else, too - one at a time, and baby steps all the way.

[veggiewolf]

For all those questions you've always wanted to ask - here's the place!  What questions do you have about FlameKeeping?  what seems petty and stupid, but you really want to know?  What's important that I haven't addressed?  .... what do you just want to ask because I'm giving y'all the opportunity?

If it's religiously based, I'll answer.  If it's personal, I reserve the right to tell you to bugger off.   But here's the chance - ask a FlameKeeping guru!

Could you comment here about FK's stance on "priests" and "congregation"?

[HeartShadow - Cutethulhu]

Could you comment here about FK's stance on "priests" and "congregation"?

FK pretty much assumes that most people have *stuff to do* - a religion of priests doesn't fit the entire concept.

There IS a role I call the "Wayfinder" - someone that helps other people figure out where it is they're going.  This allows for a congregational model for those that want it - with NO obligation to go to services!  Simply an offer of "here if you want it".

I could also see services being podcast and people being formal and informal Wayfinders and all kinds of things, but that would require a few more people before there's any point into looking at it.

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