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Author Topic: Transgendered Women Excluded from Dianic Ritual at PantheaCon  (Read 67006 times)
Asch
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« Reply #285: March 03, 2011, 03:22:52 pm »

Thanks for the links.  The blog posts by Thora Drakos (the first two) are somewhat disheartening, especially this from the second blog:

I am used to hearing such language from very bigoted people, and it does not inspire confidence.  This sort of statement is used to imply that because it is not a large group of people they are therefore unimportant and/or wrong (because if they were right there would be a lot of them).  In my experience, it's a well-used trope in religious discourse (especially by those in conservative patriarchal religions) when hostility to queer people, people of colour, and others is pointed out.  That Drakos then goes on to use an example of a group based on ethnicity does not help assuage the impression that the trope has been lifted wholesale.  Defending one's practices by pointing to the (assumed) small number of those who have problems with them is basically a last-ditch defence when other, stronger defences have failed.  It's not a principled defence of practice but an implied assertion that one's practice would change if only enough people complain.  It's something every marginalised group has heard at some point, and it truly is adding insult to injury.

I would hope that this is not the road that the group decides to go down.

IMO most of that post smacked of extremely poor and specious logic. Taking an argument to a logical extreme is a lame tactic.
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« Reply #286: March 03, 2011, 04:22:42 pm »

Thank you Windy, for this insight. Language is a very tangled thing to tackle and one that I am personally trying to get a better understanding of around this issue to then better inform all of our Coven. Many of us, have a huge learning curb to overcome, one of the good things about this is that it has given me the eye opening experience of needing to bridge that gap.

You're welcome.  Language is very tangled but also very powerful as I think the power of spells and/or invocations in most religious traditions make clear.  It has the power to divide (as we've sadly already seen) but also the power to unite.  I may be overly optimistic, but I believe careful, deliberate language used in an attitude of respect and love will help lead to healing and understanding.
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« Reply #287: March 03, 2011, 05:10:48 pm »

Bolding mine--I think that should probably be "without."

Yes, you are right. Fixing it and crediting you. Smiley
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« Reply #288: March 03, 2011, 07:55:56 pm »

If a non-discrimination policy makes certain events impossible, maybe they are better off without those events.

This.
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« Reply #289: March 03, 2011, 10:35:45 pm »

I can't speak for my sisters, as those are their personal blogs that detail their personal trials and struggles with this issue. I will say that this is a hard hitting emotional issue that has more than two sides, and all are feeling the brunt of it. This is going to be a process for our group, and maybe, hopefully inspire other groups to also process and re-evaluate. CAYA has never been a place where everyone 100% agrees on everything, but do believe in our ability to grow for the better.
Yes, it's very clear from how different the various blog posts are that CAYA is not at all monolithic, and that you'll have a great deal of internal processing to do.  This is why, while I would have loved a similarly-firm statement about the problematic terminology along with the statement about who does and does not speak for you, I didn't expect one this early on.  It looks, indeed, like this may be a major conflict point for you - I'm seeing people like yourself and Ladybug who are clearly open to learning why these terms are problematic and exploring better alternatives, and others who are resistant to the idea that there's anything wrong with the words and reluctant to relinquish them.
 
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« Reply #290: March 03, 2011, 10:51:10 pm »

Thanks for the links.  The blog posts by Thora Drakos (the first two) are somewhat disheartening, especially this from the second blog:
Ugh, yes.  I think what bothered me the most is that she seems very entrenched in her misconstruction of what exactly the problem is - that misconstruction is pervasive throughout both her posts.

One thing that's quasi-good about even the disheartening posts is that they indicate that the folks in CAYA are not coming from the position of active and virulent transmisogyny that's a feature of many Dianic groups - I'd found it almost impossible to believe, earlier, that those involved could be so unaware of the poisonous history entwined in these matters; now I'm inclined to believe that it really is ignorance rather than malice.  Not that it's any less toxic for that, but it means there's at least a possibility of minds changing as a result of learning about that history.

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« Reply #291: March 04, 2011, 06:03:53 pm »


Thorn Coyle posts her ruminations on gender at PantheaCon:
http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Duality-and-Diversity-T-Thorn-Coyle-03-04-2011?offset=0&max=1
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« Reply #292: March 04, 2011, 06:27:20 pm »


Jeez, she makes me feel more fangirl about her than I already did.  One of these days I'm gonna make it to one of her presentations.

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« Reply #293: March 04, 2011, 06:38:29 pm »

Jeez, she makes me feel more fangirl about her than I already did.  One of these days I'm gonna make it to one of her presentations.

I trained with her for two years; the sound of her voice makes my posture get better. Wink
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« Reply #294: March 04, 2011, 06:49:38 pm »

I trained with her for two years; the sound of her voice makes my posture get better. Wink

We don't seem to have a ton in common theologically, but her take on pagan mysticism is endlessly thoughtful and fascinating.  And I totally believe you about the posture thing!

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« Reply #295: March 04, 2011, 06:54:18 pm »

We don't seem to have a ton in common theologically, but her take on pagan mysticism is endlessly thoughtful and fascinating.  And I totally believe you about the posture thing!

Part of the reason I was interested in studying with her at the time I was doing so was wanting to stretch outside my comfort zone, actually.  (I mean, some of it was simple availability, but the idea of learning from someone with such a different take on things was very valuable at the time.)

She is Very Big on proper posture and the whole, y'know, if you compress your rib cage and aren't breathing properly how can you do magic right? sort of thing.
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« Reply #296: March 05, 2011, 02:43:13 am »

She is Very Big on proper posture and the whole, y'know, if you compress your rib cage and aren't breathing properly how can you do magic right? sort of thing.

Wear a corset on a regular basis-that will sort out your posture and breathing! Steel boned is better (either full corset or just an underbust one over a shirt-both look amazing) and is also good for a bad back!
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« Reply #297: March 05, 2011, 09:08:02 am »

Part of the reason I was interested in studying with her at the time I was doing so was wanting to stretch outside my comfort zone, actually.  (I mean, some of it was simple availability, but the idea of learning from someone with such a different take on things was very valuable at the time.)

She is Very Big on proper posture and the whole, y'know, if you compress your rib cage and aren't breathing properly how can you do magic right? sort of thing.

I have evolutionary witchcraft, skimmed it, and I got the posture bit just from that.  I can totally see that.
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« Reply #298: June 28, 2011, 12:47:10 am »



I'm really glad everyone seems to be on the same page with this issue (I kinda just skimmed the first few pages, I won't lie) but I must say, after reading the first post, I was at first disgusted. Pagans, at least to me, have always seemed to be the most accepting and non-judgmental of any group of people. Though I do understand where the Dianics are coming from, and so I don't think she was intentionally being judgmental, I have to say that I believe they're terribly wrong.

Science, sociology, and spirituality all agree that gender is a societal stereotype given to a born sex. Transgendered individuals, as you all know, are simply the wrong gender in the wrong body. Psychology calls this "gender identity disorder." That aside, and going along with what others of said, I definitely think that rituals should have more emphasis on the spirit rather than her physical.

I myself don't identify 100% with either gender. Though I am happy being a man (haha, fooled you with my avatar, didn't I?) I definitely would never, ever call myself masculine. I'm actually very turned off by traditionally masculine Western concepts such as sport enthusiasm, ridiculous car knowledge, hunting or fishing, or having a careless sense of style (not that I find anything wrong with that, I've just never been drawn towards that). Yet at the same time, I also don't feel transgendered nor would I ever perform in "full drag", to put it more in perspective. In short, I simply don't understand why a man can't wear high heels with his suit, or throw on some eye liner and lipstick here and there with his glass of whiskey.

Sorry...got off on a little rant there.
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