The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
April 01, 2020, 04:02:04 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 01, 2020, 04:02:04 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Pagan Traditions as Monoliths  (Read 6403 times)
Carnelian
Master Member
****
Last Login:January 15, 2012, 12:55:04 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Greek paganism
Posts: 289


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #15: March 12, 2011, 10:47:39 pm »

It does annoy me when people try to pin down certain influences within the Western Mystery Tradition as solely Neo-Platonic, or Abrahammic, in an attempt to label the whole of a tradition as "Monotheistic" in essence, especially when there's members of these traditions in various countries of many different religions. I don't see how trying to recognise universal truths is monotheistic , when it was present in pre-Christian Polytheistic cultures. That's why I find it odd that some fundamental reconstructionists can "pick&choose" among various source material and personally interpret it, and it's ok, but when those not following a reconstructionist methodology do, it's "eclectic neo-paganism."

Here, here, good sir!

It looks like it's common for Pagans to have a variety of influences. I mentioned a quote from Walter Burkert in another thread, basically saying that polytheism is an open system, and one culture's traditions change with every contact with foreigners. In ancient Greece it was checked for reasons that were political in nature (in that anything Greek is superior and must be kept pure, while anything foreign is inferior), not theological. Even with foreign infiltrations being checked for political reasons, it never completely stopped. Following the "One and Only Authentic Way" is a foreign concept to non-Abrahamic religions.

Recons who have only studied one ancient culture always seem really ignorant to me. Having no familiarity with other pre-Christian indigenous traditions and no reference for interpretation of religion other than Christianity, or whatever religion the person was raised in, causes problems. I know within Hellenic polytheism, certain people still have a very Christian mindset, viewing certain issues in terms of a Christian moral discourse and feeling the need to codify tenets of Hellenic tradition almost to the point where they become commandments. Not that there is anything wrong with being Christian, it's just a very different way of interpreting the world than the way indigenous cultural traditions would.
Logged

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

UlsterYank
Master Member
****
Last Login:January 21, 2013, 02:18:03 pm
Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Republic of

Religion: Traidisiúnachais Gaelach, Witchcraft, Thelema
TCN ID: UlsterYank
Posts: 292


Déan mar is Toil leat, a bheas mar iomlán an Dlí

Blog entries (0)

anmericeanach
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #16: March 13, 2011, 05:00:02 am »

I would argue that "polytheism" was a valid classification throughout Europe and the Near East.
Oh I would agree as well, however often what we call animistic, or pantheistic, or both undertones are overlooked in the beliefs that we call polytheism as well, and there's often confusion between monotheism(which I think it's safe to say none of us are implying), and Monism. Johnston was touching on unity of oneness of the divine as a professor in the Department of Greek that's done comparative religious studies, and my wife is also friends with a Sumerologist that's stated a pantheistic nature of much of the Mesopotamian pantheons. It's also been used in association with the Netjar, and Gaelic Fírenne, which will always be subjective, as will our interpretations of the beliefs of the ancients. Even though in agreement "polytheism" is a valid classification for these belief systems, in general there's always confusion in applying modern definitions and blanket statements to ancient cultures. "Paganism" also happens to be an older term and valid classification, but that doesn't stop others from having knee-jerk reactions towards it. 
Logged

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains" AL II:9
UlsterYank
Master Member
****
Last Login:January 21, 2013, 02:18:03 pm
Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Republic of

Religion: Traidisiúnachais Gaelach, Witchcraft, Thelema
TCN ID: UlsterYank
Posts: 292


Déan mar is Toil leat, a bheas mar iomlán an Dlí

Blog entries (0)

anmericeanach
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #17: March 13, 2011, 05:24:19 am »

I mentioned a quote from Walter Burkert in another thread, basically saying that polytheism is an open system, and one culture's traditions change with every contact with foreigners. In ancient Greece it was checked for reasons that were political in nature (in that anything Greek is superior and must be kept pure, while anything foreign is inferior), not theological. Even with foreign infiltrations being checked for political reasons, it never completely stopped. Following the "One and Only Authentic Way" is a foreign concept to non-Abrahamic religions.
Good man yourself! Study of other ancient cultures would indicate that that's a common factor in many belief systems. For instance a lot of the Insular Celtic beliefs of the afterlife is believed to have been influenced by Continental contact with Greeks at Massalia. Anything "pure" doesn't stand the test of time, and imo forming statements stemmed from applying modern concepts to ancient cultures shouldn't be a regular practice in methodologies that seek to reconstruct ancient concepts in a modern setting.
Logged

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains" AL II:9
Nomad of Nowhere
Journeyman
***
Last Login:February 01, 2012, 01:48:26 am
United States United States

Religion: Slavic Polytheist
Posts: 107


Gdje Yarilo hodi, tu vam polje rodi.

Blog entries (2)



Ignore
« Reply #18: March 19, 2011, 05:41:32 am »

Oh I would agree as well, however often what we call animistic, or pantheistic, or both undertones are overlooked in the beliefs that we call polytheism as well, and there's often confusion between monotheism(which I think it's safe to say none of us are implying), and Monism. Johnston was touching on unity of oneness of the divine as a professor in the Department of Greek that's done comparative religious studies, and my wife is also friends with a Sumerologist that's stated a pantheistic nature of much of the Mesopotamian pantheons. It's also been used in association with the Netjar, and Gaelic Fírenne, which will always be subjective, as will our interpretations of the beliefs of the ancients. Even though in agreement "polytheism" is a valid classification for these belief systems, in general there's always confusion in applying modern definitions and blanket statements to ancient cultures. "Paganism" also happens to be an older term and valid classification, but that doesn't stop others from having knee-jerk reactions towards it.  

Pantheism is a modern word as well, but using modern terms seems to be unavoidable.
Animism and polytheism have probably existed side by side for most of human history. In many cultures, have my doubts that they were ever separate. If you think about it, having local land based spirits beneath higher Gods is just a simple hierarchy of otherworldly entities. I tend to feel differently about pantheism and monism however. While it's true that these were not "exclusive", and therefore not incompatible with polytheistic or animistic beliefs, they seem to be separate, later cultural developments. For instance, Hellenic monism can be traced back to Pythagoras or possibly some mystery religions at the earliest, but it was not a trait of the Greek polytheistic religion. It simply existed alongside it once it developed.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 05:49:29 am by Nomad of Nowhere » Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Traditions of one God shared with another. « 1 2 »
Pagan Spirituality
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu 20 6316 Last post May 25, 2007, 05:18:08 pm
by Caroline
Closed Traditions? « 1 2 3 4 »
Paganism For Beginners
xsheogorathx 56 16278 Last post July 31, 2008, 01:55:04 am
by wisdomsbane
Marriage Traditions
Paganism For Beginners
Carnelian 4 2555 Last post October 23, 2009, 03:26:35 pm
by OpenHands
Traditions for birth or babyhood
Pagan Parents SIG
Collinsky 6 3040 Last post February 12, 2010, 04:11:14 pm
by Collinsky
Fantastic Pagan Traditions Quiz « 1 2 3 4 »
Non-Pagan Religions and Interfaith Discussions
Castus 57 16822 Last post June 12, 2011, 01:10:16 pm
by outlaw393
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.052 seconds with 36 queries.