No Abortion Options Lead to...

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

Or donate directly via Paypal

This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.

[Chabas]

Irrelevent to my point that the author at KOS is lying about the state of the law.

...you think that because in theory, this 13yo could go to court to circumvent the parental consent requirement - which requires knowing the law well enough to know it's even an option, enough legal savvy to know where to go, and what to do, possibly legal counsel, the courage to speak in open court about what happened to her, and finally, of course, the luck of finding a sympathetic judge - that makes the claim that PA requires parental consent a lie? I'm sorry, but that statement implies a total disconnect from reality.

--Chabas

[sailor_tech]

...you think that because in theory, this 13yo could go to court to circumvent the parental consent requirement - which requires knowing the law well enough to know it's even an option, enough legal savvy to know where to go, and what to do, possibly legal counsel, the courage to speak in open court about what happened to her, and finally, of course, the luck of finding a sympathetic judge - that makes the claim that PA requires parental consent a lie? I'm sorry, but that statement implies a total disconnect from reality.

--Chabas

do some research. then you can talk about what the law requires and doesn't require and where the disconnect is.

[Satsekhem]

do some research. then you can talk about what the law requires and doesn't require and where the disconnect is.

1. A child is, in effect, legal property of the parents until the age of legal adulthood has been reached. This age, of course, varies on the state. This is why when, as a young adult, you total your parents' car and cause damage to property, the parents are held responsible. This is why, when parents want to look cool and give their kids beer, they're held responsible for any negative effects of this action. That is why when asked to sign legal and medical documentation before this age is reached, you are not able to do so. The responsibility is entirely upon the parent/legal guardian of said minor.

2. For the sake of this argument, let's just assume that your obviously biased and holier-than-thou attitude was correct: she could have gotten a legal abortion by judge sanction without her parents being notified and the man who raped her going to jail. This is a list of all of the Planned Parenthoods in PA. That would of course be the place that she would seek answers and advice since that is the point in the program, neh? Considering that, and in looking at the list, each place would take her...

...from Allentown to Harrisburg, an hour and a half to two hours.
...from Allentown to Warminster, an hour and fifteen minutes.
...from Allentown to York, two hours.
...from Allentown to W. Chester, an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half.
...from Allentown to Trexlertown, twenty minutes.
...from Allentown to Harrisburg, an hour and a half to two hours.
...from Allentown to Pittsburgh, five to six hours.
...from Allentown to Phillie, an hour and a half.

Okay, so we have a PP within a twenty minute drive. Awesome, great... Except how is this child supposed to get there? There's a taxi service based right out of Allentown, but how does she pay for the taxi? Can she go to her parents, who since the judge gave her an okay "don't know" about any of this, and say, "Hey, I need taxi fare?" If this isn't a normal conversation, the parents will ask questions and a child that age under such deep emotional and mental stress will crack in seconds when questioned by the parents.

She could hitchhike, right? It's a straight shot down Rte 22/I-78. I've been on that stretch of highway numerous times, when visiting relatives and when driving through the state. There is no way anyone could hitchhike. There is no shoulder to pull over. You are boxed in, on either side of this major thruway by large wooden barriers to keep the sounds of speeding traffic away from the residents. You have, maybe, a five foot place to stand behind a guard rail (if you're lucky) and stick out your thumb. So, let's say this emotionally and mentally stressed out 13-year-old did that. What were the chances that even in a place like that she would meet up with a stranger who would take advantage of her instead of getting her to Trexlertown and the abortion appointment? I-78 is a busy stretch and there's plenty of people who would hurt a 13-year-old.

Let's ignore those options because they're silly, right? No one would think like that. What could be going through my head? A bus! Who doesn't have public transit nowadays, right? However, according to LANTA, their public transportation, does not go in the direction of Trexlertown. In fact, doesn't leave the city.

So. According to you, this thirteen-year-old was savvy enough to get legal help without informing her parents. She was able to keep the case out of the papers even though statutory rape in that area would be BIG news and difficult to keep out of the papers, whether a gag order was put into effect or not. This wonderfully intelligent and perfectly capable thirteen-year-old  was able to go to authorities when WOMEN TWICE HER AGE HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME REPORTING RAPES. You really give the emotionally fragile thirteen-year-old a lot of credit. You give the conservative system in place in a highly religious area a lot of credit that they probably do not deserve.

But you're right, of course, and no matter what we say, we are wrong.

[sailor_tech]

But you're right, of course, and no matter what we say, we are wrong.

Yes I am right, the author of the article at KOS does not know the state of the law. And as regards to your point #1, you seem to be unable to read the law either. She has the legal option of going to a judge. Although you finally seemed to have noticed the right to go to a judge when you get to pt #2.

How far the PP centers are is irrelevent to the state of the law.

How she is to get there is irrelevent to the state of the law.

Her ability to do any of this is irrelevent to the state of the law.

[FierFlye]

Yes I am right, the author of the article at KOS does not know the state of the law.

Who gives a flying, farting frijole? The point is that if Planned Parenthood goes away, more women will be jamming pencils into their uterus.

[mandrina]

Who gives a flying, farting frijole? The point is that if Planned Parenthood goes away, more women will be jamming pencils into their uterus.

According to the law, there is a judicial work around.  THe law doesn't care if she has to go to another state to find an abortion provider, if she finds one in PA, she either has to get parental permission or a judicial workaround.  Everything else is irrelevant to the law, which is what the author of the post was blaming for the situation. 

Actually, the situation would probably have been the same if there was no notification, or anything, for the girl.  She was in an untenable situation and was of an age, she would have needed help from someone to procure an abortion.  She needed help to get out of the situation she was in.  Any abortion provision other than down the street from where she was, would have been untenable for her.

[LyricFox]

Who gives a flying, farting frijole? The point is that if Planned Parenthood goes away, more women will be jamming pencils into their uterus.

The other thing that so conveniently gets overlooked is that PP is frequently the only source a low income woman has for cervical exams and mammograms. I know I'd never have been able to afford them without PP, and the thought of those going away...well, as a cancer survivor who has breast cancer in her family...it's an awful feeling.

[sailor_tech]

According to the law, there is a judicial work around.  THe law doesn't care if she has to go to another state to find an abortion provider, if she finds one in PA, she either has to get parental permission or a judicial workaround.  Everything else is irrelevant to the law, which is what the author of the post was blaming for the situation. 

Actually, the situation would probably have been the same if there was no notification, or anything, for the girl.  She was in an untenable situation and was of an age, she would have needed help from someone to procure an abortion.  She needed help to get out of the situation she was in.  Any abortion provision other than down the street from where she was, would have been untenable for her.

Very true. Even down the street might not have worked out. She'd have to know that there was a clinic there or at least where to look for one.  And to know that money would not be a deciding issue.

Depending upon her friends, she might have a 17 yr old friend who could drive say up to an hour to a clinic if she knew to ask to get to one. 

This also assumes, in this case, that the man the linked thru story says she was in a "relationship" since 2009 with hadn't convinced her that there was no way to get a legal aborton at her age. Or that going the by-pass option would land him in jail.

Or that even having an abortion would trigger questions into how a 13 yr old got pregnant. Pre Wikipedia, age of consent is 16 with a Romeo & Juliet exception down to 13.  Would PP ask the question if there was a chance that the act was legal?

[sailor_tech]

The other thing that so conveniently gets overlooked is that PP is frequently the only source a low income woman has for cervical exams and mammograms. I know I'd never have been able to afford them without PP, and the thought of those going away...well, as a cancer survivor who has breast cancer in her family...it's an awful feeling.

Ouch, this thought hurts.  What happens to PP govt funding once ObamaCare is fully implemented (if it is) and all women are required to have insurance that covers Pap smears, mammograms etc?

[Inca]

Irrelevent to my point that the author at KOS is lying about the state of the law.

In what way? I haven't figured out the lie yet...

[sailor_tech]

In what way? I haven't figured out the lie yet...

Head to palm.

The author post at KOS was blaming this incident on parental notification and that there was no way for her to get a legal abortion without telling her parents.  As I've been pointing out, this is flat out wrong about the state of the law in PA.

[Star]

Head to palm.

The author post at KOS was blaming this incident on parental notification and that there was no way for her to get a legal abortion without telling her parents.  As I've been pointing out, this is flat out wrong about the state of the law in PA.

I'm confused about two things here, personally:

1.  Why you keep saying the author of the article is lying, as opposed to merely being misinformed.  Why could this not just be a simple mistake?  What about the article makes you think that the author is willfully lying?  (By which I do not mean to imply that you are incorrect in your interpretation--maybe you are, maybe you aren't.  But I don't understand it, so I'd like to see a little more support.)

2.  Your contention is that the law does not require parental consent because a judge can waive that requirement, right?  Maybe this is my lack of knowledge of the law, but--the way that sounds to me is that the law DOES require parental consent, but the judge can make an exception to the requirement.  Which would mean that a statement that PA requires parental consent would still be accurate.  It doesn't give all the information, because exceptions can happen, but the requirement is there.

For the record, I do see your point that if you're just looking at the question of what the law requires or does not require, the practicalities of the situation aren't relevant.  If the law does not require consent, then the law does not require consent.  That her parents would probably have had to find out is relevant to the question of how difficult it is for a 13-year-old to get an abortion, but not to the more specific question of the law's role in that scenario.  However, I'm not sure that focusing on that one line in the article is really helping you make your case effectively here.

[Inca]

The author post at KOS was blaming this incident on parental notification and that there was no way for her to get a legal abortion without telling her parents.  As I've been pointing out, this is flat out wrong about the state of the law in PA.

Wel.. the fact that the judge may still deny that request seems to be an issue about availability, wouldn't you say?

(We can't even know wether the girl has actually applied for that and perhaps was denied, the judge isn't at liberty to tell.)

[mandrina]

Ouch, this thought hurts.  What happens to PP govt funding once ObamaCare is fully implemented (if it is) and all women are required to have insurance that covers Pap smears, mammograms etc?

They'll take insurance payment.

[sailor_tech]

I'm confused about two things here, personally:

1.  Why you keep saying the author of the article is lying, as opposed to merely being misinformed.  Why could this not just be a simple mistake?  What about the article makes you think that the author is willfully lying?  (By which I do not mean to imply that you are incorrect in your interpretation--maybe you are, maybe you aren't.  But I don't understand it, so I'd like to see a little more support.)

2.  Your contention is that the law does not require parental consent because a judge can waive that requirement, right?  Maybe this is my lack of knowledge of the law, but--the way that sounds to me is that the law DOES require parental consent, but the judge can make an exception to the requirement.  Which would mean that a statement that PA requires parental consent would still be accurate.  It doesn't give all the information, because exceptions can happen, but the requirement is there.

For the record, I do see your point that if you're just looking at the question of what the law requires or does not require, the practicalities of the situation aren't relevant.  If the law does not require consent, then the law does not require consent.  That her parents would probably have had to find out is relevant to the question of how difficult it is for a 13-year-old to get an abortion, but not to the more specific question of the law's role in that scenario.  However, I'm not sure that focusing on that one line in the article is really helping you make your case effectively here.

It's very possible the author is just an idiot and is trying to raise controversy where there isn't any. Considering the person who wrote the head line is a law professor though, I really doubt it's idiocy or mis-information.

As the article is written, and this thread is titled, it's not a case of "No Abortion Options Lead to ... ". 

Judicial by-pass is not really an exception. It's an alternerate route. You don't have to be denied by your parents to go to a judge. That's the whole point for judicial by-pass. Nor do your parents ever have to find out that you had an abortion, again, that's the point of judcial by-pass.

Now if you want to say that "Abortion clinic further than 20 minutes away leads to ..." that's a different discussion.

Or "13 yr olds are not well informed enough about abortion law leads to ... " that's yet a different discussion.

Neither of those two though are likely to be glamorous to make the news or help raise awareness for the cause.

Neither one is likely to lead to much news coverage

[Tags:]

Jump to: Please select a destination: ----------------------------- About The Cauldron ----------------------------- => Rules and Regulations => Cauldron Announcements ===> Volunteers Needed: Site Assistants and Projects => Introductions => Board Questions, Suggestions, and Feedback => Chat and CauldronMUX Support => Test Board ----------------------------- Religion and Philosophy ----------------------------- => Paganism For Beginners => Books and Other Resources => Pagan Religions => Pagan Spirituality => Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology => Worship and Ritual => Holidays and Festivals => History and Religion => Faith in Everyday Life => Philosophy and Metaphysics => Non-Pagan Religions and Interfaith Discussions => Miscellaneous Religious Discussions ----------------------------- Magic and the Occult ----------------------------- => Magic and the Occult for Beginners => Witchcraft, Hoodoo, and Folk Magic => The Western Magical Tradition => Chaos Magic => Lodges and Other Magic Organizations => Miscellaneous Magical Discussions ----------------------------- Special Interest Groups & Special Discussions ----------------------------- => Special Topic Discussions => Chavi Memorial Chronic Illness SIG => General SIGS ===> College Pagans SIG ===> Cooking SIG ===> Divination SIG ===> Home and Garden SIG ===> Pagan Parents SIG ===> Teen Pagans SIG => Religious SIGS ===> Asatru and Heathenry SIG ===> Cauldron Cill ===> FlameKeeping SIG ===> Hazel and Oak: A Celtic Polytheism SIG ===> Neo-Druidry SIG ===> Reformed Kemeticism SIG ===> Ta Hiera Hellenic Polytheism SIG => Book/Media Discussion Boards ===> Academic Book Discussions ===> Pagan Religion Book Discussions ===> Magick Book Discussions ===> Fiction Book Discussions ===> DVD/Video Discussions ----------------------------- Life, the Universe, and Everything Else ----------------------------- => Pagan Announcements => Prayer and Energy Requests => News and Politics ===> Religious News ===> Non-Religious News ===> Political Discussions => Social Discussion Boards ===> Art, Poetry and Writing ===> Books ===> Computers and the Internet ===> Crafts and Hobbies ===> Family Life ===> Gaming ===> Health and Medicine ===> Humor and Quizzes ===> Music, Television, and Film ===> Pets ===> Science and Technology ===> Sports and Recreation