No Abortion Options Lead to...

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[Steve - ComW]

Here is the original article as taken from the LeHigh Valley newspaper.

The girl was probably shoved in the direction of a self-abortion because of the 30-year-old male, so chances are, it would have happened anyway. What the hell ever; this is ridiculous.

STAFF: please lock this thread.

I'm Afraid that would be counter to the culture of the board, and non-productive in most ways.

The purpose of the board is to allow discussion of issues and to share opinions, not to stop a discussion by closing it down if we don't like the way it is going.

Steve Cauldron Staff Member.

[Satsekhem]

Well, if you want to play that game.

WTF is that supposed to mean?

[Star]

STAFF: please lock this thread.

I've just finished replying to your PM, but since you've said this in public I'll reply here too:  We do not lock threads except under extreme circumstances (and then usually only temporarily), and this thread has not reached that point yet.  We certainly do not do so just because the person who started the thread isn't comfortable with the way the thread is going.

I do agree, however, that things are maybe still a bit hot and some of us (self perhaps included) would do well to try to cool down a bit before continuing this discussion.  This is going to be an emotional thread no matter what; it's a highly-charged hot-button topic.  A little heat is fine, but if you cannot participate in this discussion without letting the heat take over, take a break until you can or leave the thread.  I would encourage those who remain to consider the manner in which they are participating and make sure that they're actually involved in productive discussion and not just stirring up bad feelings.  Remember that this is a very personal issue for a lot of people--it's up to them to leave if it gets too personal, yes, but a little consideration never hurts and may help the discussion move along more smoothly.

Let's keep it calm, guys.  I don't think this thread is at the locking point yet, but it could get that way very easily, and I'd really hate to see that.


Star
Cauldron Message Board Coordinator

[Star]

Well, if you want to play that game.

That's enough, Peter.  If you have something productive to say, say it--and say it clearly, don't just drop enigmatic one-liners.  If you don't have time to elaborate, wait until you do to post.  If you're just going to snark on other posters, keep it to yourself--discuss the issues, not the people.  Posts like this one fan the flames to no purpose.

[RandallS]

WTF is that supposed to mean?

*** MOD HAT ON ***

You told staff to close the thread. I'm fairly sure Peter's reply referred to that. It's the "take the toys and go home 'game'". As other staff members have stated, we don't close threads here except in extreme circumstances.

That said, I people in this thread really do need to

a) cool down
b) reply in meaning length messages. One-liners are often too easy to misinterpret -- especially for those of us who do not have the entire thread in memory so figure out exactly what they are likely to really be trying to say.
c) try to separate arguments on "accuracy of the article's statements on the legal issues" from arguments on the abortion issue itself. The one liners are definitely not helping with this.

[catherine]

My point has been that the article is wrong as to law being why the girl did a self-induced abortion.

Thank you for clarifying your point. In this, I would agree with you to a certain degree. The article does make assumptions about why this girl chose to self abort instead of seeking medical attention. None of us knows for sure why she did it. It could have been for a variety of reasons. The fact that she needed parental consent or judicial bypass could have been a real obstacle for her. We just don't know.

None of this changes the fact that in PA, there is a law that was created to restrict abortion access. From my perspective, that's the real issue here. At least that's the issue for me.

I'll be honest, this is a hot button issue for me. I spent some years in the late 80's early 90's doing clinic defense as a pro choice escort. I was witness to some horrible, heartbreaking things. I can tell you based on my experiences with patients, that this law causes an undue hardship not just for underage women, but all women seeking to terminate their pregnancies.

Sure, as a parent, if I had a teen daughter I would make sure that she knew she could come to me for help. But, not all parents are like me. Judicial bypass isn't really any consolation. The judge(s) can always say no. She doesn't have many option left if that happens.

[Starglade]

None of this changes the fact that in PA, there is a law that was created to restrict abortion access. From my perspective, that's the real issue here. At least that's the issue for me.

Bolding mine.

Yes. This, exactly. The law is there to make it more difficult to obtain an abortion. Not to prevent it entirely, but to make it more difficult--to restrict access. For some people, the level of difficulty will be enough for them to feel that their access has indeed been entirely removed. Notice, I say "for them to feel" it has been removed. That's the perception of which I spoke before. And in my book, there's a fine line between "restricting access" (which is legal) and "imposing undue burden" (which the SCOTUS has ruled unconstitutional, but which has been sliding backward almost since the ruling for Roe v. Wade was handed down).

[sailor_tech]

Thank you for clarifying your point. In this, I would agree with you to a certain degree. The article does make assumptions about why this girl chose to self abort instead of seeking medical attention. None of us knows for sure why she did it. It could have been for a variety of reasons. The fact that she needed parental consent or judicial bypass could have been a real obstacle for her. We just don't know.

None of this changes the fact that in PA, there is a law that was created to restrict abortion access. From my perspective, that's the real issue here. At least that's the issue for me.

I'll be honest, this is a hot button issue for me. I spent some years in the late 80's early 90's doing clinic defense as a pro choice escort. I was witness to some horrible, heartbreaking things. I can tell you based on my experiences with patients, that this law causes an undue hardship not just for underage women, but all women seeking to terminate their pregnancies.

Sure, as a parent, if I had a teen daughter I would make sure that she knew she could come to me for help. But, not all parents are like me. Judicial bypass isn't really any consolation. The judge(s) can always say no. She doesn't have many option left if that happens.

Without the media or somebody violating the girls confidentiality, we can not be really sure why she did not go to a clinic.

I'm fairly confident that in my opinion if the girl had the skills to contact Planned Parenthood that judicial by-pass would not be a huge burden. PP would have been able to get a free lawyer and gotten her to the court house.

The PP site for PA says that in the 7 years that judicail by-pass has been in place, only 1 case has been rejected. The site isn't clear wether that was at the single judge stage & overturned on the 5 day appeal or if even the appeal was denied. Also not mentioned is how many minors have been to see a judge.

This is a lousy set of circumstances to use an example for changing the parental consent law, especially when the author pushing it fails to mention judicial by-pass.

She was 13 yrs old, is she aware of how to contact an abortion clinic?  ie, look them up in the phone book or on the web?

Does she have access to a computer, say at school that has no filtering software to search for PP or similar's phone & contact info? If it has no filtering software, and is hidden from adult viewing, kids Will look for porn, so how many boys will be kicked out for that? If looking at porn Is punished, would she trust the computers & adults?

The person she was involved with for the past two years was 22 or so years older than her. She was at least 12 and him at least 32 when the relationship started. Whey didn't he get her to the PP clinic?  For an adult with a car, the trip is easy. Did he talk her out of a clinic visit?  Would He trust PP to treat a girl he brought in without trying to pin him for statutory rape?

At 13, does she have the skills to on her own, figure out that she can get an abortion for free? or would she assume that they are like all other doctors and require payment?  or assume they are like all other doctors and will ask for an insurance card?  Both of these points could stop her before she even looks to see if she needs parental consent or even looks for a clinic.  Or would she still assume that since it's a medical procedure she'd need parental consent since she can't even have a Midal for cramps during school without a parental note?

So far I see a lot more hurdles from common regular life experiances for kids before the kid even looks at abortion laws.

Thing is, as soon as the kid has even an older teen they can trust, all of these problems become fairly minor.

Education Might help. I'm not so sure that 12 or 13 yr olds would pay enough attention, or keep liturature handed out in school. OK, there is always at least one nerd in the class that would remember this stuff, or have it at home. Would most girls be friendly enough and trusting enough to approach the nerd, and do so in a way that wouldn't raise questions about why she was doing it?

[Inca]

The PP site for PA says that in the 7 years that judicail by-pass has been in place, only 1 case has been rejected.

I have found somewhere that that was rejected on appeal. There were a few more that have appealed, and the number of rejected in the first place - couldn't find that one.

I am trying to find the link, somehow finding something again may even be harder than finding it in the first place.

Anyway, I came across something else, because it was mentioned, on medical decisions.
http://www.aclupa.org/education/clarabellduvallreproductiv/minorsaccesstoconfidential/referencecardminorsaccesst.htm

Education Might help. I'm not so sure that 12 or 13 yr olds would pay enough attention, or keep liturature handed out in school.

It depends on how it is done. While fuzzy on the details, if the eduction makes clear 'abortion is an option and you can get it in a confidential way' rather than 'hushhush on the sex thing and abortion is evil' than most will remember the message.
And well, yes, I do say education should also include access to information in a safe way, not just in the class that covers it but in general.

More on the practical problems: judges recuse themselves from ruling on judicial bypasses, and then the minor has to seek the decision in a neighboring district. (And provide own transportation.)
http://www.healthlaw.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=433%3Aabortion-judicial-bypass-recusal&catid=40&Itemid=194

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/gvpt/lpbr/subpages/reviews/silverstein1007.htm mentions that contacting the court for information on judicial bypass may very well result in incorrect information.
Notable quote

The reality that pregnant teens often face is different from the perceived objective application of the supposed right to which they are entitled.  Faced with hostile judges and ignorant court employees, teens and their attorneys frequently endure outrageous courtroom behavior to “go through the motions” to get the result they want.  Pro-choice attorneys and their clients may face an extremely uncomfortable process, lengthy questioning, hostile witnesses and judges, but challenging them and raising constitutional objections would only harm their cause with the next pregnant teen

I can just about imagine that, if someone has to go through that once, they might not seek appeal.
 
Appeals may also not get a reevaluation:

While appeals courts know generally the facts of a specific case, in considering bypass petitions they don't make an independent determination on whether a teenager is mature enough to have an abortion and give her informed consent to the surgery. Appellate courts only overturn a ruling if they find evidence that a judge has abused his discretion.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11049/1126272-455.stm

In general, I think it is fair to state that the law and its exection does place quite some limits on the girls...

[sailor_tech]

I have found somewhere that that was rejected on appeal. There were a few more that have appealed, and the number of rejected in the first place - couldn't find that one.

I am trying to find the link, somehow finding something again may even be harder than finding it in the first place.

Anyway, I came across something else, because it was mentioned, on medical decisions.
http://www.aclupa.org/education/clarabellduvallreproductiv/minorsaccesstoconfidential/referencecardminorsaccesst.htm

(snip)
In general, I think it is fair to state that the law and its exection does place quite some limits on the girls...

I'll respond to the parts I've snipped later. Those Are problems that are probably fixiable via changes in law or procedure.

OK, there is a very good case to expand the right to an aborton to include minors who have been married or graduated from high school on the basis they can make every other medical decision.  Getting this done via the courts though is probably a bad idea for precedent

Extending it to "been pregnant" raises a circular arguement though for a first pregnancy. Making an arguement for zero legal system or family (not neccessarily parent / guardian) oversight for a 13 yr old getting an abortion is going to, in my opinion, going to have to stand on another arguement. A previous abortion would not count either if it was done with family consent / notificaition; although judicial by-pass would, if done as mature rather than bests interests, count as able to make any medical decisions.

I thought the 1 case came from PP, but either I was wrong or am not seeing it today. If I don't get back to this in the next 48 hours, try the link below. I can't get there while in Panera Bread, although I can get to PP. No idea why they are blocked as sex ed but PP isn't.

http://www.positive.org/JustSayYes/JudicialBypass.htm

Probably more later. I have to joy of taking my 17 yr old for minor surgury (wisdom teeth) and must be present.

[sailor_tech]

It depends on how it is done. While fuzzy on the details, if the eduction makes clear 'abortion is an option and you can get it in a confidential way' rather than 'hushhush on the sex thing and abortion is evil' than most will remember the message.
And well, yes, I do say education should also include access to information in a safe way, not just in the class that covers it but in general.

Teaching "abortion is an option" to young teens I still think isn't going to be a full solution, even if it were politically viable. Of course this is being colored by how poorly all to many US students do in general.

I presume your last sentence is in response to something I recently said, but I'm not sure what. Nor am I clear on what you are intending the school to be doing.

Oh, the link in the previous post mentions the 1 case in 7 years. I was able to check on it once I got the public library.

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