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Author Topic: What are the most notorious books on celtic neopaganism?  (Read 46669 times)
Malkin
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« Reply #60: May 05, 2011, 09:53:12 pm »

That last bit shocks me, I thought our sense of humour didnt leave the Island but she clearly knows a few Irish people or genuine Irish diaspora because its there in the book. Theyd kill me for saying it but from the way things are phrased I can imagine some Irish wiccans coming out with similar stuff over a pint. Maybe lots of pints at the end of a tired work day hehehe (Im borrowing chainmail if youre reading this you wont get me yeh Bastards! lol)

It's interesting that you say that, Nuadu - I know a young man in Alaska who's of Irish descent, and he has just the same sense of humor as you! Even down to the way you both write and express yourselves, it's uncanny. I've observed a similar phenomenon with a guy from Canada I met, who had just the same sense of humor and all the same mannerisms as a man I knew whose family had come to the U.S. from Canada nearly 200 years ago. It's things like that which make me think that culture doesn't just fade away as quickly as we sometimes fear.

Anyway, rest assured that I'm familiar with your style of communication, haha. Gee, I haven't read McCoy's Witta since I was 14. I think it's still on my shelf right over there, because the used bookstore wouldn't take it! I'll have to take another look...
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Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
Thessaly: Hmph.

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« Reply #61: May 05, 2011, 11:10:38 pm »

Anyway, rest assured that I'm familiar with your style of communication, haha. Gee, I haven't read McCoy's Witta since I was 14. I think it's still on my shelf right over there, because the used bookstore wouldn't take it! I'll have to take another look...

Oh, I was wrong - it was Ray Buckland's Scottish Witchcraft on the shelf, from the same stage in my life. Similar cover.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2i6mc6f.jpg

This was one of Buckland's "Cherokee Princess"-type offerings. Previously he had founded an Anglo-Saxon flavored tradition of Wicca and published a book about it which included a ritual for self-initiation (which is not something that Gardnerians typically approve of), published a book on "Gypsy magick" while claiming Roma ancestry, and with this book, claiming Pictish ancestry (of all things). In his time he has also claimed to head the only "legitimate" line of Gardnerian Wicca in America, and beaten his wife, but people don't talk much about either of those things these days.

As for the book's contents, this review covers it far better than I ever could. But you do miss out on all the photos of Buckland wearing a kilt and holding up various objects, posing impressively with a wizardly staff, and a "dirk" that doesn't look much like a dirk. Also, there's Cailleach Bhuer and...

http://i54.tinypic.com/2qxw6ro.jpg

Wait for it...

http://i53.tinypic.com/xpsrva.png

I think we've all come to expect certain goddesses to become cute old grandmas in books like this, but the Gorgeous Sun Jesus Gruagach is just too much. Cheesy For years I was afraid to work with Lugh, because I was afraid that he was solar, and that it would mean he'd look like this. It's all coming back to me now.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 03:21:13 am by Melamphoros, Reason: Turning images into links » Logged

Thessaly: It's time to draw down the moon.
Foxglove: We did this. Or something like this. We had water and salt, not blood. We invoked the goddess in her aspect as the moon. We called down her power...
Thessaly: Did she answer you?
Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
Thessaly: Hmph.
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« Reply #62: May 05, 2011, 11:13:22 pm »


I think we've all come to expect certain goddesses to become cute old grandmas in books like this, but the Gorgeous Sun Jesus Gruagach is just too much. Cheesy For years I was afraid to work with Lugh, because I was afraid that he was solar, and that it would mean he'd look like this. It's all coming back to me now.

Oh my god... it's Scottish Buddy Christ!
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« Reply #63: May 05, 2011, 11:27:37 pm »


Nuadu,

A side note:  Your avatar does not meet our requirements.  Our avatar guidelines specify that avatars may not be larger than 128 pixels wide by 200 tall and must be 10kb or less in file size.  I have to ask you to please either reduce the size of your current avatar or find a different one that complies with our rules.  (If you need help with either of these things, consider posting in the Avatar Helpers thread or the Board Questions, Suggestions and Feedback board.  We have several members who can lend a hand.)

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« Reply #64: May 06, 2011, 02:32:14 am »

Wait for it...

http://i53.tinypic.com/xpsrva.png

I think we've all come to expect certain goddesses to become cute old grandmas in books like this, but the Gorgeous Sun Jesus Gruagach is just too much. Cheesy For years I was afraid to work with Lugh, because I was afraid that he was solar, and that it would mean he'd look like this. It's all coming back to me now.

Looks like someone got struck by lightning!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 03:23:30 am by Melamphoros, Reason: Turning image into link and fixing quote code » Logged
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« Reply #65: May 06, 2011, 03:31:39 am »

Oh, I was wrong - it was Ray Buckland's Scottish Witchcraft on the shelf, from the same stage in my life. Similar cover.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2i6mc6f.jpg

This was one of Buckland's "Cherokee Princess"-type offerings. Previously he had founded an Anglo-Saxon flavored tradition of Wicca and published a book about it which included a ritual for self-initiation (which is not something that Gardnerians typically approve of), published a book on "Gypsy magick" while claiming Roma ancestry, and with this book, claiming Pictish ancestry (of all things). In his time he has also claimed to head the only "legitimate" line of Gardnerian Wicca in America, and beaten his wife, but people don't talk much about either of those things these days.

As for the book's contents, this review covers it far better than I ever could. But you do miss out on all the photos of Buckland wearing a kilt and holding up various objects, posing impressively with a wizardly staff, and a "dirk" that doesn't look much like a dirk. Also, there's Cailleach Bhuer and...

http://i54.tinypic.com/2qxw6ro.jpg

Wait for it...

http://i53.tinypic.com/xpsrva.png

I think we've all come to expect certain goddesses to become cute old grandmas in books like this, but the Gorgeous Sun Jesus Gruagach is just too much. Cheesy For years I was afraid to work with Lugh, because I was afraid that he was solar, and that it would mean he'd look like this. It's all coming back to me now.

I have turned the images in this post (as well as a post that linked to it) into links because A: To prevent The Cauldron from getting into potential legal troubles due to copyright issues (as highlighted in The Rules) and B: because I'm not sure where the images are hosted (I know it's tiny pic but I don't know whose account it is).  I am not handing out any official warnings, just a friendly reminder for future reference.

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« Reply #66: May 06, 2011, 04:54:12 am »

There are many things that can offend reconstructionist or recon-inclined pagans (and considering that's a wide variety of people with various likes and dislikes when it comes to interpreting material, it's a pretty big range). One of those things is blatantly fabricating history and claiming it as authentic. For crying out loud she claimed Ireland had an ancient, pre-Christian potato goddess, when the potato is a New World vegetable! The first potato didn't even hit Irish soil until well after it was Christianized, and I'm talking centuries here. When the cornerstone of your proposed religion (in this case, Edain McCoy's "Witta") is based on an absolute lie... how is any recon worth their salt supposed to take it seriously?

Hear hear!

Although, she never directly spells out that there was a potato goddess as such, she just says that they're sacred to Her:

"Potatoes, Ireland's staple crop, were used magickally in spells for healing and fertility, and were also carved into various forms for image magick much as the mandrake root is today. Because they grew underground potatoes were sacred to the Goddess and used in female fertility rites. Potatoes have a grounding effect. If you feel frazzled and stressed out cuddle a potato." (p82, like somebody else noted)

I've read the book and pretty much lost any motivation to try and approach the book on its own terms and merits when the author seriously advised the reader to cuddle a potato because it's grounding and sacred to the Goddess. Otherwise it really is just 'wicca with shamrocks' for the most part, but I think the strength of feeling against the book is indicative of the shoddy research she did for the book - 'Witta' couldn't possibly be Irish, there's the whole Burning Times and matriarchy stuff thrown in, Cernunnos isn't an Irish god, Beltene - 'Irish god of death' ffs. It's not all dire, but there are some pretty hefty clangers in there.

That it got reduced to 'Ancient Irish Potato Goddess' isn't entirely accurate, but I think it's indicative of the fact that the book is a kind of watershed in neopagan publishing history; it's often held up as encapsulating everything that's wrong with the popular neopagan publishers, Llewellyn in particular. She does acknowledge elsewhere that potatoes aren't a native crop to Ireland, but she blurs the lines between Ancient Irish Religion and what she justifies airily, without going into too much detail, as later additions to the mix so heavily that it gets lost. I'm pretty sure that it was lost on some of the Wittans I've seen on various fora over the years, and I think the meme has a lot to do with what was being said by those who read the book and swallowed it whole, as much as what McCoy actually wrote.

Witta wasn't the only terrible book of its time. Buckland's Scottish Witchcraft (tartan wicca) is awful as well, and both have books in their bibliography that should have offered a good basis of research, but they either ignored or twisted what they saw in those books for their own ends. Both have some kind of equivalent of the old Initiatory Granny, both are terribly researched and written. McCoy's book was just more popular, and in that respect I'd bet that some would argue that it was more damaging.
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« Reply #67: May 06, 2011, 09:38:42 am »

It's implied in her work. I'll admit she never directly states it (although "ancient potato goddess" is now a pretty well-known neopagan meme),

That is one way of looking at it Rin. I would say that "Ancient potato goddess" was a silly joke invented by other people intended to provoke light hearted laughter. A combination of the authors liking of the theory of a matrifocal culture and her mistake about the potato.

Even a kids book about leprechauns wouldnt have a potato god in it.

Quote
but she claims that Witta existed as a faith in ancient Ireland

And Steve Blamires does the same thing with pop qabala and everyone recommended his book. What puzzles me is Why is Edain McCoy the scape goat for something typical in celtic neopaganism? Or really typical of modern culture when you think about the tradition/modernity dichotemy.

Quote
that they were a matrifocal society, had a Great Mother Goddess at the centre of their worship,


That isnt Edain McCoy's fault. In 1850 JJ Bachofen theorized that societies moved from matriliny to patriliny and that the mother was at the centre of all religious belief. It is still a popular idea. Since it wasnt Edain McCoy that came up with the theory and it isnt her thats propigated I wouldnt persicute her for what theory she prefers.

Quote
and that one of her symbols was the potato (her reasoning: "it grew underground". page 82, paperback)

In fairness the only thing out of charactor for any form of neopaganism here is the mistake in assuming a plant that is significant in folk trad today had the same meaning in the past. Most books dont look at Irish folk tradition at all and neopagan books make up all kinds of mad waffle about colours and plants and so on... Its barely worth commenting on in a neopagan context.

In fairness Im sure I could nail most of the celtic neopagans on the forum for having some plastic paddy belief.

Quote
The meme might have grown beyond what Edain McCoy originally wrote, but her shoddy research and blatant attempt to re-write Irish history (and in fact European history, with the mention of "The Burning Times") still stands.

Why not go after Gimbutas instead if a matrifocal religion and the burning times bother you? I never hear the same level of criticism of gimbutas and she popularized the idea in neopaganism. Or Steve Blamires... he does the same thing as McCoy.

Quote
Edain McCoy later stated she was ashamed of what she published and admitted she did poor researching when she wrote Witta. Not ashamed enough however, to stop publishing the book (although she may have not had a choice in this) or to tell people to stop buying it.

Can you imagine that. You spend ages writing something, share it with your friends and family. Proudly tour with the book and promote it and then someone makes you ashamed of your work... How shitty is that. I know pubishing isnt common knowledge but from aqquaintences I hear that once you sign a contract with a publisher they have the right to publish the books and it might not be possible for Edain McCoy to stop the book being published unless she can find a way to break the contract.

I know someone who wrote a book 9 years ago and the publisher recently sent her demands for money lost on returns... Even if the book is unpopular a publisher can sell it and claim back losses from you. I dont think its as simple as asserting copyright over the book and saying no more publishing.
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« Reply #68: May 06, 2011, 11:00:30 am »

It's interesting that you say that, Nuadu - I know a young man in Alaska who's of Irish descent, and he has just the same sense of humor as you! Even down to the way you both write and express yourselves, it's uncanny. I've observed a similar phenomenon with a guy from Canada I met, who had just the same sense of humor and all the same mannerisms as a man I knew whose family had come to the U.S. from Canada nearly 200 years ago. It's things like that which make me think that culture doesn't just fade away as quickly as we sometimes fear.

That is mad Malkin hehehe. The humour probably travels better then I give it credit for.


Oh, I was wrong - it was Ray Buckland's Scottish Witchcraft on the shelf, from the same stage in my life. Similar cover.

Oh that looks fantastic! I have a sudden craving for crackers and white wine to go with that cheese haha

Quote
I think we've all come to expect certain goddesses to become cute old grandmas in books like this, but the Gorgeous Sun Jesus Gruagach is just too much. Cheesy For years I was afraid to work with Lugh, because I was afraid that he was solar, and that it would mean he'd look like this. It's all coming back to me now.


That gruagach thing lead me down a mad road. Id never heard of it before and it has some mental amount of waffle about it. Irish house brownies (harry potter?) Anthropomorphic Pig men (comics possibly) ...The sun god! its cheesier then danish blue. That is my plastic paddy keyword of the week. More cheese then a chuck norris sized cut of Knightrider blue danish.
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« Reply #69: May 06, 2011, 11:02:54 am »




Gruagach.
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« Reply #70: May 06, 2011, 11:30:25 am »


Why not go after Gimbutas instead if a matrifocal religion and the burning times bother you? I never hear the same level of criticism of gimbutas and she popularized the idea in neopaganism. Or Steve Blamires... he does the same thing as McCoy.


Gimbutas is a scholarly author etc, professor, and there is a whole bunch of stuff that goes after her in a scholarly fashion. 

Beginners don't, for the most part, read Gimbutas, they read McCoy.  Blamires doesn't have the same name either for beginners, or maybe I just haven't been paying attention.  I didn't find any books by him on the Kabbalah, but he seems to be into the ogham.
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« Reply #71: May 06, 2011, 11:39:09 am »

Gimbutas is a scholarly author etc, professor, and there is a whole bunch of stuff that goes after her in a scholarly fashion. 

Beginners don't, for the most part, read Gimbutas, they read McCoy.  Blamires doesn't have the same name either for beginners, or maybe I just haven't been paying attention.  I didn't find any books by him on the Kabbalah, but he seems to be into the ogham.

And the thread on Blamires on this board is not, IIRC, very positive or approving in the main.

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« Reply #72: May 06, 2011, 04:42:47 pm »

And the thread on Blamires on this board is not, IIRC, very positive or approving in the main.

And if one brought up Gimbutas as a serious recommendation, she'd probably be roundly criticized too.  This thread has been about McCoy, and thus it's McCoy taking the heat--simple as that.  No need to list every author whose facts are shaky every time you talk about any author in that category.
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« Reply #73: May 06, 2011, 06:05:00 pm »



Gruagach.


Hahaha! Gorgeous.
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Thessaly: It's time to draw down the moon.
Foxglove: We did this. Or something like this. We had water and salt, not blood. We invoked the goddess in her aspect as the moon. We called down her power...
Thessaly: Did she answer you?
Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
Thessaly: Hmph.
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« Reply #74: May 08, 2011, 08:18:36 am »

Theyd kill me for saying it but from the way things are phrased I can imagine some Irish wiccans coming out with similar stuff over a pint. Maybe lots of pints at the end of a tired work day hehehe (Im borrowing chainmail if youre reading this you wont get me yeh Bastards! lol)

Having been to Ireland recently, I feel like I should be reading this whole thread over a pint at a pub.  Wink

I bought the Witta book ages ago, when I started looking to bring more Irish into my Wicca. Would I buy it again now? No. Would I throw it out next time I find it in my book pile? No. I haven't finished the book, but I think there's some interesting stuff in there that can spark your interest in finding out more real information on the Irish and Irish paganism. And if I really correctly, there were some ritual outlines and recipes that were ok.

It had it's intended use, with me. It got me looking into a wider variety of books on Ireland, after I realized that no one publishing in the modern Pagan community really had a good grasp of things. Of course, that also made me realize that I'm not a huge fan of the recon community either. Great scholarship, but they're more into thinking than doing, at least, the ones I've found. So I learned there had to definitely be a balance between unverified personal gnosis and scholarly reconstructionism.

Frankly, everyone, I never go looking at a pagan book for good history, and if there's any message I think we should be putting out as a community, it's that. If you want historical information, or anthropological information, or cultural/ethnic information, then go to the books published by authors in those fields. Pagan books, even the stuff put out by non-Llewellyn publishers, often don't have that because those authors are experts in a magical tradition, and not history/anthropology/etc.

And I also encourage folks to read bad books with a grain of salt. Not only to know what other people in the community gripe about, but to be able to make their own conclusions on things. I might hate a book, and have valid reasons for hating a book, but if it can spark a positive, helpful question in someone's mind then it isn't completely ready for the burn bin, IMO.

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