What Makes a Druid?

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[Gonner]

I'm not sure that the training being inconvenient to someone who chooses to focus their resources on a largely secular lifestyle is quite the same as being 'impractical'.

Its not inconvenient imo its impossible. Three impasses come to mind immidiately.

1. Who is going to train you if there hasnt been an historical druid for 1000 years?

2. WIll there be a comparable education? Druids would have begun training as a child and would have been taught by family members can we as neopagans who approach spirituality as adults usually independantly from family have a comparable experience? I know the things I learned as a child contributed to who I am in a different way then the things I learned as an adult would the end result of 20 years of training that began in adulthood in a secular society be similar to training begun in childhood in a pagan one?

3. What does the training get you? You wont have the social status of a druid after 20 years of training. For example if you stand in between 2 armed men youll just get butchered because your training wont have the same meaning for them as it might have to iron age people. Standing between armies doesnt come into even the most egotistical of mens minds nowadays. You have no religious duties in society and you have no secular weight... that being the case youre not comparable to an historical druid imo.

I dont see how it is remotely plausable to be a member of nn historical iron age priestly caste 1000s of years since that caste stopped being relevant.

[darashand]

As with about a ton of other things that originate in old societies there is the same major problem:
Those societies do not exist any longer.

(Who would you go to for advice in a law case - A - modern - druid or a lawyer? )
In our society they are people to fill some of the roles a Druid had to fill in their times.

For the sake of argument, you could go to a lawyer who is a druid

Druidry in its origins is modern its influences are modern and its great..

This is the heart of the topic.  I think it is necessary to observe what was (20 years of training) and apply it to modern settings.  While a druid candidate doesn't necessarily need a Ph.D, it should be required that some amount of documented training should be recognized whether through higher education or through specific programs like ADF, OBOD, etc.  Of course, the solitary person not affiliated with these programs should probably have some sort of structure which can be verified when asked for.  The point is, being called the title "Druid" is not something one should take lightly, rather it should be recognized that it is a special title with much effort involved, so people cannot go around calling themselves "Druid" just because they read two books on the subject. 

And it really is necessary for people in the movement to define what is a Druid for this reason.  We have seen many people read one or two books and say "I'm a High Priestess" or "I'm a shaman" and in all cases, this is just not fact.

[darashand]

I dont see how it is remotely plausable to be a member of nn historical iron age priestly caste 1000s of years since that caste stopped being relevant.

That is very true, and mostly the point.  This SIG is really for the modern interpretation of a Druid, so since we don't live in the "Golden Age of the Druids" (tm), the role is vastly different.  A modern interpretation of a Druid is mostly someone who is a Bard, Seer, or Priest (in my opinion).  Within that role, they are responsible for learning lore, using divination techniques, and conducting rituals (among other things).  A modern interpretation or usage of what was would be a lawyer, philosopher/teacher, mediator/counselor, but in these cases the person would need to identify as a Druid to be considered one.  Make sense?

[Ellen M.]

That is very true, and mostly the point.  This SIG is really for the modern interpretation of a Druid, so since we don't live in the "Golden Age of the Druids" (tm), the role is vastly different.  A modern interpretation of a Druid is mostly someone who is a Bard, Seer, or Priest (in my opinion).  Within that role, they are responsible for learning lore, using divination techniques, and conducting rituals (among other things).  A modern interpretation or usage of what was would be a lawyer, philosopher/teacher, mediator/counselor, but in these cases the person would need to identify as a Druid to be considered one.  Make sense?

I think that's a good, succinct explanation. I'm an ADFer (with the intention of exploring other Neo-Druid organizations at some point) and feel that the motto "Why not excellence?" is a good expression of druid identity. For a lot of reasons, replicating the role of Ye Olde Druids in modern society is near impossible, but that's not what I'm going for. I'm interested in becoming well versed in various skills or crafts related to supporting some sort of religious path - whether it's solitary, for a grove, or a larger organizations, or whether solely Druid or a mix of different Pagan paths. Part of that is (or can be) priesthood - learning or crafting liturgy, knowing ritual structure, understanding cosmology, prayer, and sacrifice - or crafting - making the best art, music, handicrafts, etc. that we can - or ritual skills such as meditation and divination. I think it's impossible to become an expert in all of these fields, but striving to develop as many of these as we can while also working to improve the community - religious or secular, small or large - we live in is what I think of when I hear "druid".

[Darkhawk]

Asking my Celt, he says (pardon the choppiness of this, I'm taking notes as he pontificates):

Reconstructionist druidry can't happen, because of things like the lack of the mediating-between-clans function.  (Though one could of course get mediators between neo-druidic groups, which is intensely meta.)  There isn't the community built up to get the druidic-recon-style thing going right.

He would say: founded in a Celtic value system, meaning pride in achievment, presence of and value of natural and spirit worlds, and honesty/honor (regarding self and others, so "I am awesome" and "You are awesome too").  Not mystically-oriented, but lore and learning-oriented; "more an intellectual path than a psychoemotional path, which doesn't mean you can't do the psychoemotional stuff too".  Value of knowledge/poetry/story even if not of the bardic type (see also "You are awesome too").  Gather and share knowledge with a community; protect that knowledge and know which portions are the relevant ones to share at any particular time.

Would expect preservation/conservationalist attitudes in the modern day, both environmental and cultural.  Not for the sake of keeping things the same, but awareness of interconnections.  Non-isolationism - recollecting mediator role of original druids, among other things - it cannot be a purely solitary path.  (Does not have to be a path with co-religionists, just a shared community and presenting and upholding those ideals.)  More advisor than leadership, but can run things if necessary.  Must know why actions are taken, when they're taken.

Within a specifically Celtic context: respect for the written word, especially including its limitations and psychological effects.  (Such as the "Now that we wrote this down it is True and Historical!" error.)  Respect and awareness of oral tradition.

[Asch]

Asking my Celt, he says (pardon the choppiness of this, I'm taking notes as he pontificates):

Reconstructionist druidry can't happen, because of things like the lack of the mediating-between-clans function.  (Though one could of course get mediators between neo-druidic groups, which is intensely meta.)  There isn't the community built up to get the druidic-recon-style thing going right.

He would say: founded in a Celtic value system, meaning pride in achievment, presence of and value of natural and spirit worlds, and honesty/honor (regarding self and others, so "I am awesome" and "You are awesome too").  Not mystically-oriented, but lore and learning-oriented; "more an intellectual path than a psychoemotional path, which doesn't mean you can't do the psychoemotional stuff too".  Value of knowledge/poetry/story even if not of the bardic type (see also "You are awesome too").  Gather and share knowledge with a community; protect that knowledge and know which portions are the relevant ones to share at any particular time.

Would expect preservation/conservationalist attitudes in the modern day, both environmental and cultural.  Not for the sake of keeping things the same, but awareness of interconnections.  Non-isolationism - recollecting mediator role of original druids, among other things - it cannot be a purely solitary path.  (Does not have to be a path with co-religionists, just a shared community and presenting and upholding those ideals.)  More advisor than leadership, but can run things if necessary.  Must know why actions are taken, when they're taken.

Within a specifically Celtic context: respect for the written word, especially including its limitations and psychological effects.  (Such as the "Now that we wrote this down it is True and Historical!" error.)  Respect and awareness of oral tradition.

I don't think anyone is arguing or stating that being a druid today means being the exact same thing as a historical druid. For one both the ADF and OBOD cheerfully and rightfully acknowledge that it is impossible to claim the title of a historical druid full stop for the reasons already mentioned, it is not possible to legitimately reconstruct a thousand year dead religion/caste that was almost exclusively oral. It just can't be done.

Which is why this sig is focused on neo-druidry etc

Rather, what we're trying to debate is what constitutes a legitimate or appropriate claim to the title now.

Personally I agree that some kind of training course along the lines of OBOD or ADF or any other legitimate program that takes some skull sweat and inner seeking is absolutely a requirement. Further a working knowledge of how your society functions, political awareness (even activism), further eduction beyond the equivalent of high school, and a willingness to serve your local neo-pagan community should be key.

[Darkhawk]

Rather, what we're trying to debate is what constitutes a legitimate or appropriate claim to the title now.

Which was, you know, what he was answering when I asked.

[Asch]

Asking my Celt, he says (pardon the choppiness of this, I'm taking notes as he pontificates):

Reconstructionist druidry can't happen, because of things like the lack of the mediating-between-clans function.  (Though one could of course get mediators between neo-druidic groups, which is intensely meta.)  There isn't the community built up to get the druidic-recon-style thing going right.

He would say: founded in a Celtic value system, meaning pride in achievment, presence of and value of natural and spirit worlds, and honesty/honor (regarding self and others, so "I am awesome" and "You are awesome too").  Not mystically-oriented, but lore and learning-oriented; "more an intellectual path than a psychoemotional path, which doesn't mean you can't do the psychoemotional stuff too".  Value of knowledge/poetry/story even if not of the bardic type (see also "You are awesome too").  Gather and share knowledge with a community; protect that knowledge and know which portions are the relevant ones to share at any particular time.

Would expect preservation/conservationalist attitudes in the modern day, both environmental and cultural.  Not for the sake of keeping things the same, but awareness of interconnections.  Non-isolationism - recollecting mediator role of original druids, among other things - it cannot be a purely solitary path.  (Does not have to be a path with co-religionists, just a shared community and presenting and upholding those ideals.)  More advisor than leadership, but can run things if necessary.  Must know why actions are taken, when they're taken.

Within a specifically Celtic context: respect for the written word, especially including its limitations and psychological effects.  (Such as the "Now that we wrote this down it is True and Historical!" error.)  Respect and awareness of oral tradition.

Meant to say, sounds quite a bit like ADF's stated goals

[Collinsky]

In your opinion, what should a person do in order to become a Druid?  According to my research, those who became Druids studied for about 20 years, memorizing everything they were taught.  Some argue that most of us have that type of training (given our modern education), so an additional 20 years is not necessary.  Some think that a Ph.D is required.  What do you think?

As far as education goes, unless we're talking specific druidic education, I don't think a PhD necessarily qualifies one for the title of "Druid" -- partly because it shuts out the autodidacts who may in fact be more qualified.

I think that the conversation about what a modern druid is is important. We aren't recreating. We're doing something new, based on what we understand of something ancient. We can be as faithful to the information we have as we are able, but we're still filling in gaps, and we're still working within a vastly different time and culture.

The things I care about, that I'm interested in becoming learned in, seem to fit well within my understanding of what a druid's role in our society might be. I will personally claim the title "druid" when I meet some markers that I've set for myself, many of which are educational (but not necessarily degree-conferring.) When I feel comfortable in being able to confidently and competently demonstrate knowledge on the lore, as well as the parts of my path that will be my service to society, then it will be more appropriate. I would think that if you're claiming the title, you should be able to defend your reason for claiming it, besides liking the book you read and looking smashing in a white robe. 

[Asch]

Which was, you know, what he was answering when I asked.

Sorry I didn't mean to come off as snarly toward you specifically but rather was trying to address the poster that seemed to think this was an attempt to reconstruct the impossible (I realize quoting your post in doing so was...uh...confusing? Erm dare I say a stupid move on my part?). Apologies if I stomped your toes

[Gonner]

Sorry I didn't mean to come off as snarly toward you specifically but rather was trying to address the poster that seemed to think this was an attempt to reconstruct the impossible (I realize quoting your post in doing so was...uh...confusing? Erm dare I say a stupid move on my part?). Apologies if I stomped your toes

I take it that it was intended for me. When you asked me to elaborate on my belief that druidry is modern and anything else is romanticism my reply was not intended as a threat to you or the forum, if it came across that way I apologize. My intention was not to threaten or denegrate the forum. Recon in celtic neopaganism is a sore spot for me though and my reply could well have been a bit acerbic as a result so its probably my fault. I will try and word things better next time.

[Morag]

In your opinion, what should a person do in order to become a Druid?  According to my research, those who became Druids studied for about 20 years, memorizing everything they were taught.  Some argue that most of us have that type of training (given our modern education), so an additional 20 years is not necessary.  Some think that a Ph.D is required.  What do you think?

I think a university education is completely necessary.

Not because the degree you may or may not get is terribly important, or that there's specific knowledge at university that is forbidden to non-university students. No, because university doesn't just give you the knowledge out there -- it teaches you the skills for managing it, for absorbing it, for effective research techniques, and effective communication of what you've learned. All of which are important, imo, to being a Druid.

Not to mention that while you're in university you have easier access to more scholarly works. And a plethora of people whose very job it is to help you learn in certain subjects -- professors and librarians can be great mentors. And being in a community of other people who are committed to learning can open your mind to other experiences and points of view. An open mind and acceptance of diversity I think is also very important (not just for neo-druidry, but for life in general).

Even without a degree, university confers those skills. So I think that to be a Druid some form of formal post-secondary education is necessary.


This is my own opinion, of course. YMMV.


There are other things, too, but I haven't finished formulating my thoughts on them yet.

[Darkhawk]

No, because university doesn't just give you the knowledge out there -- it teaches you the skills for managing it, for absorbing it, for effective research techniques, and effective communication of what you've learned.

I suspect if that were the case I would not have dropped out so hard that I bounced, by the way.

[Ellen M.]

I think a university education is completely necessary.

I agree to a point. Actually, most of me agrees with you, except for one nagging part of me which wonders about people who, for whatever reason, can't attend university or college. (Money might be an issue, or they have a family/job that takes up too much of their time, or they didn't test well enough to get in.) I wouldn't want that to keep someone away from a druidic path.

Then again, I also make a distinction between "I am practicing a Neo-Druidic path" and "I have attained the status of a Druid." I wonder if a non-university equivalent could be developed.

[Juni]

No, because university doesn't just give you the knowledge out there -- it teaches you the skills for managing it, for absorbing it, for effective research techniques, and effective communication of what you've learned.

While I think that is certainly the ideal of university, I hardly think it's universally true. I only know two college graduates personally that have any of those skills, and they had those skills long before they went to college. Also, like Darkhawk, if your statement had been the case, I would have stuck around a lot longer than I did.

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