What Makes a Druid?

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[BGMarc]

No, because university doesn't just give you the knowledge out there -- it teaches you the skills for managing it, for absorbing it, for effective research techniques, and effective communication of what you've learned. All of which are important, imo, to being a Druid.

I agree that a university qualification at a post-baccalaureate level is a pre-requisite for being a contemporary Druid, but I think it's worth adding that, while university has the capability to teach these things, not everyone who attends has the capacity or the temperament to learn them. Then again, while anyone can follow a Druidry-inspired path, not everyone can become a Druid IMHO. That doesn't mean that people are stupid or any other perjorative concept.

[Thorn]

Then again, while anyone can follow a Druidry-inspired path, not everyone can become a Druid IMHO. That doesn't mean that people are stupid or any other perjorative concept.

What Marc said. 

I've happily followed a druidic-inspred path.  I can't imagine the circumstances where I'd actually call myself a druid.

[Asch]

What Marc said. 

I've happily followed a druidic-inspred path.  I can't imagine the circumstances where I'd actually call myself a druid.

Indeed, this is why when someone asks I generally mention that I am a member of OBOD & the ADF or in some situations state that I am a Neo-Druid rather than declaring that I am, in fact, a Druid. It is a loaded title and one I have not yet earned, if, indeed, I actually can in our modern world. (Note, in the OBOD Druid is an actual rank with meaning within the organization in that it is one of three levels of training that can be attained)

[Morag]

Then again, I also make a distinction between "I am practicing a Neo-Druidic path" and "I have attained the status of a Druid." I wonder if a non-university equivalent could be developed.

That's the distinction I'm making as well, and the question was "What makes a Druid?" not "What makes someone a person following a neo-druidic path?"

The issue of people not being able to attend university for various reasons is not alien to me, but I find it's separate to this discussion. (IE, the exclusiveness of academia in our Western society is something that I think should be changed. I also think that university itself should be changed structurally to be more accommodating to different learning styles. I stand by my opinion that university does teach one how to effectively deal with information, whether you're there a semester or four years.)

I think a non-university equivalent could and should be developed. Not exactly sure, yet, how to go about doing that, but it is end of semester and I'm pretty engrossed in two papers that were due yesterday, so it's not something I can really put my mind to at the moment.

[BGMarc]

Its not inconvenient imo its impossible.

I agree that it is impossible to become an ancient Druid in the contemporary era, but I'm not sure that that is the project that anyone here is keen to persue. My reading of the thread and the SIG more generally is that people are interested in a modern, genuine equivalent role that can be called Druid, without dishonour to the ancient holders of that title and with meaningful reference to their training, knowledge and role.

I believe that modern writings such as Fictions, Facts, and Mysteries: Druids by Francine Nicholson, M.A are a good place to start an analysis of what the core elements of ancient Druidic knowledge, beliefs and roles were and hence to begin the construction of a contemporary equivalent.

1. Who is going to train you if there hasnt been an historical druid for 1000 years?

I believe that training would come from a variety of sources, many secular. The knowledge of the Druids appears to have been largely the natural philosophy of their time. I suspect that a university would be a key source of much that a modern Druid would need to know to do honour to the title. Bare in mind that I am not talking about constructing a realisation of the fantasy image of a Druid, or even the romanticised 18th-19th century version invented largely from whole cloth. I don't need to learn from a mystic with only a passing acquaintance with personal hygene, living in a cave in the wild. I do not believe that such a training regime would produce a modern equivalent of what a Druid was, when the original Celtic roles that we are referring to were first contemporary. Sure, there is a mystic element and that may involve ascetic periods of training, but I don't think that that would be the be all and end all of the making of a modern Druid.

2. WIll there be a comparable education? Druids would have begun training as a child and would have been taught by family members can we as neopagans who approach spirituality as adults usually independantly from family have a comparable experience? I know the things I learned as a child contributed to who I am in a different way then the things I learned as an adult would the end result of 20 years of training that began in adulthood in a secular society be similar to training begun in childhood in a pagan one?

As you point out, our education did begin in our childhood, just as it did for our ancestors. It is true that the role of spiritual education may have been more intense and focused from an earlier age in pre-Christian Celtic societies and that the equivalent aspects of a modern Druid's education may come later in life. I suspect that much of the natural philosophy that traditional Druids learnt in later adulthood is today covered in early schooling. The source materials do not speak of a 20-year training regimen, they say merely that it took some Druids 20 years to learn all that they needed to know for the role that they played. Given the social prominance of the Druids described to us in what little source materials that we have, I find it hard to imagine a person in their 20s or 30s reaching that level of influence in the modern era. I can imagine a person who set out to achieve a role that was socially equivalent to that of an ancient Druid managing to do so by their 40s and 50s.

3. What does the training get you? You wont have the social status of a druid after 20 years of training. For example if you stand in between 2 armed men youll just get butchered because your training wont have the same meaning for them as it might have to iron age people. Standing between armies doesnt come into even the most egotistical of mens minds nowadays. You have no religious duties in society and you have no secular weight... that being the case youre not comparable to an historical druid imo.

I agree that you are unlikely to to exercise such influence as a result of the simple fact of societal norms that relate to religion. Could you come to exercise them on the basis of being recognised as a person of wisdom, knowledge, experience, foresight, deep understanding and solid practical experience who has influential relationships with socially important people that have been forged across a lifetime of self-consciously and purposefully exercised influence? I suspect so. To me the barrier here is an overly romanticised view of what it might mean to be a modern individual that can rightfully claim the title of Druid.

I dont see how it is remotely plausable to be a member of nn historical iron age priestly caste 1000s of years since that caste stopped being relevant.

I agree. It's not remotely plausable. Becoming a modern, meaningfully-equivalent individual - very different and far more plausable project IMO.

[darashand]

In your opinion, what should a person do in order to become a Druid?  According to my research, those who became Druids studied for about 20 years, memorizing everything they were taught.  Some argue that most of us have that type of training (given our modern education), so an additional 20 years is not necessary.  Some think that a Ph.D is required.  What do you think?

An interesting "fly in the ointment"...

I am currently reading A Brief History of the Druids by Peter B. Ellis, who says some sources indicate that Druids studied until they reached the age of 20 rather than studied for 20 years.  I always thought the sources meant to say at a certain age (assuming 18 or maybe a person who has reached adulthood) the student then underwent study which took 20 years.  I suppose we won't really know for sure.

*See Ch. 8: "Wisdom of the Druids" (I believe)

I believe that modern writings such as Fictions, Facts, and Mysteries: Druids by Francine Nicholson, M.A are a good place to start an analysis of what the core elements of ancient Druidic knowledge, beliefs and roles were and hence to begin the construction of a contemporary equivalent.

Thank you for the suggestion.

As you point out, our education did begin in our childhood, just as it did for our ancestors. It is true that the role of spiritual education may have been more intense and focused from an earlier age in pre-Christian Celtic societies and that the equivalent aspects of a modern Druid's education may come later in life. I suspect that much of the natural philosophy that traditional Druids learnt in later adulthood is today covered in early schooling. The source materials do not speak of a 20-year training regimen, they say merely that it took some Druids 20 years to learn all that they needed to know for the role that they played.

Agreed.  I think this is closer to what actually was meant, rather than what people have taken from it.

[Asch]

An interesting "fly in the ointment"...

I am currently reading A Brief History of the Druids by Peter B. Ellis, who says some sources indicate that Druids studied until they reached the age of 20 rather than studied for 20 years.  I always thought the sources meant to say at a certain age (assuming 18 or maybe a person who has reached adulthood) the student then underwent study which took 20 years.  I suppose we won't really know for sure.

*See Ch. 8: "Wisdom of the Druids" (I believe)

Thank you for the suggestion.


Agreed.  I think this is closer to what actually was meant, rather than what people have taken from it.

Interesting. I started reading that but had to set it aside for textbooks once my quarter started anew (I really need to sort out a system for getting non-school reading accomplished le sigh).

I think most neo-druid organizations tend to agree that years of training were/are generally required, but, some fairly large portion of that would be what we tend to consider practical knowledge that can be earned in most basic scholastic programs (K-12).

However, considering that, would a further level of training/accomplishment be required now? I tend to think the answer is yes, and to me at least the subject of that study would most clearly be spiritual. We may have a surprisingly effective system of education by ancient standards for practical secular knowledge but, speaking for myself, I was pretty danged ignorant of a lot of spirituality outside of the relatively staid cut and dried Christian spirituality I grew up with.

So, for me, a modern druid would be someone that has achieved academic success -probably a Master's or a PhD (where possible, I agree that the western university system has some massive gaping flaws but some kind of academic achievement would be needed)- as well as having spent years earning spiritual knowledge and experience. It's the experience that I think is key.

Rambling post is rambling.

[darashand]

However, considering that, would a further level of training/accomplishment be required now? I tend to think the answer is yes, and to me at least the subject of that study would most clearly be spiritual.

More on this later, but I should think it would greatly depend on your goals as a "Druid."  F'ex, If you wanted to fulfill the role of a judge or lawyer, then you would have to go to law school, etc.  If you wanted to be a clergy person, you wouldn't necessarily need to go to seminary, but you should have some type of accreditation or a program (like ADF, OBOD, etc) to certify you as a member of the clergy.

 

[Asch]

More on this later, but I should think it would greatly depend on your goals as a "Druid."  F'ex, If you wanted to fulfill the role of a judge or lawyer, then you would have to go to law school, etc.  If you wanted to be a clergy person, you wouldn't necessarily need to go to seminary, but you should have some type of accreditation or a program (like ADF, OBOD, etc) to certify you as a member of the clergy.

 

Hmm good points.

For myself I'm pursuing a B.S. in Environmental Policy and Management and debating going on for a Master's in same. I hope to combine my faith and my profession in a meaningful way.

[Gonner]

I am currently reading A Brief History of the Druids by Peter B. Ellis, who says some sources indicate that Druids studied until they reached the age of 20 rather than studied for 20 years.  I always thought the sources meant to say at a certain age (assuming 18 or maybe a person who has reached adulthood) the student then underwent study which took 20 years.  I suppose we won't really know for sure.

Dont mind PBE Dara. There are no direct references to any druidic priesthood the lit. the 20 years is described of the training of poets who we know were trained from childhood because they were in existence until the 16th century. Some poeple theorized that poets and judges are the secularized remnants of a pagan druidic profession which in turn would have had similar practices. From there we get 20 years of training for druids. Its not as popular as it used to be to consider the lit 'survivals' of iron age paganism they are more popularly considered to be representative of medieval ireland now. Auld PBE is one of those journalistic authors who do some work in their noggins and dont show their work.

[Gonner]

Dont mind PBE Dara. There are no direct references to any druidic priesthood the lit. the 20 years is described of the training of poets who we know were trained from childhood because they were in existence until the 16th century. Some poeple theorized that poets and judges are the secularized remnants of a pagan druidic profession which in turn would have had similar practices. From there we get 20 years of training for druids. Its not as popular as it used to be to consider the lit 'survivals' of iron age paganism they are more popularly considered to be representative of medieval ireland now. Auld PBE is one of those journalistic authors who do some work in their noggins and dont show their work.

Before anyone asks for primary sources look at Fergus Kellys Early Irish Law or the Poetic Grades in Early Irish Law by Liam Breatnach. For commentary you could try Pagan Past and Christian Present by Kim McCone or Conversing with Angels and aanceints by joseph flaaky nagy. I dont know that it is mentione there but they both cover related ground

[Asch]

Dont mind PBE Dara. There are no direct references to any druidic priesthood the lit. the 20 years is described of the training of poets who we know were trained from childhood because they were in existence until the 16th century. Some poeple theorized that poets and judges are the secularized remnants of a pagan druidic profession which in turn would have had similar practices. From there we get 20 years of training for druids. Its not as popular as it used to be to consider the lit 'survivals' of iron age paganism they are more popularly considered to be representative of medieval ireland now.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by this, above you seem to be saying that PBE et al were likely mistaken about the assumption of 20 years of study (not arguing that it seems to be one of those bits of common knowledge that may be based on specious facts but has become so widespread it's taken on an unwarranted weight of its own).

Auld PBE is one of those journalistic authors who do some work in their noggins and dont show their work.

Er, so you're saying that he's like basing his 20 years assumption on these long held assumptions but doesn't come out and say so? Sorry to be so thick but I'm losing something here

[Gonner]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by this, above you seem to be saying that PBE et al were likely mistaken about the assumption of 20 years of study (not arguing that it seems to be one of those bits of common knowledge that may be based on specious facts but has become so widespread it's taken on an unwarranted weight of its own).

Asch I dunno where to begin to answer that question. I am saying that PBE uses his arse for a pen and naturally what he produces with it is excrement He is not worth taking seriously imo

The 20 years idea comes from 3 things. 1. In brehon law Ideally the poetic Ollamh would have 20 years study under his belt before taking on the title. 2 The title Ollamh comes with an honour price similar to that of a king or a bishop. 3. The social status that affords an ollamh is similar to the status of romantic welsh druids and caesars accounts of druids.

The problem with PBE saying its not 20 years of study but 20 years of age is the source material that gives us that figure could not be misinterpreted in that way. It is a list of different grades of poet, their honour prices under brehon law and the years of study required to justify that honour price. Noone would imagine a 5 year old could be a poet but after 5 years of memorizing poetry you might be fit to travel around telling stories, noone would imagine a 7, 9 or 12 year old could do it... you know...

If PBE stood on his hands and painted a legable face on his backside it wouldnt be any more obvious that he is talking through his arse.

He does it all the time... he think Leprechauns are related to Lugh... little stooping lugh. In todays climate the man is a cabbage if he isnt just picking bits that he think will amuse his readership instead of presenting a probable picture of the past.

Edit: I wouldnt say PBE based things on false assumptions I would say dated theories. They are not immutable like facts they are transient but are not necessarily right or wrong. A theory that is unpopular today can be popular tomorrow and then be unpopular the day after when different evidence to support or undermine the theory comes around. Thats why theory is transient. I would imagine that PBE is a total bsr just out to sell books. He probably picks up things that he thinks will tittilate his audience as a journo author and doesnt give a rats back side about being a history author or trying to meet an academic standard when he doesnt have to.

[darashand]

Before anyone asks for primary sources look at Fergus Kellys Early Irish Law or the Poetic Grades in Early Irish Law by Liam Breatnach. For commentary you could try Pagan Past and Christian Present by Kim McCone or Conversing with Angels and aanceints by joseph flaaky nagy. I dont know that it is mentione there but they both cover related ground

I'm glad you posted this, because I am always looking for more resources for my own personal research, not necessarily because you were asked to pinpoint your answers with evidence. 

The problem with PBE saying its not 20 years of study but 20 years of age is the source material that gives us that figure could not be misinterpreted in that way. It is a list of different grades of poet, their honour prices under brehon law and the years of study required to justify that honour price. Noone would imagine a 5 year old could be a poet but after 5 years of memorizing poetry you might be fit to travel around telling stories, noone would imagine a 7, 9 or 12 year old could do it... you know...

Of course a 12 year-old wouldn't be fit to travel alone, but perhaps s/he could go with a Senior Druid to be an "assistant" and learning all the while? 

Kids can learn very quickly.  Just as an example, I've heard many comments about schools wanted to teach elementary students foreign languages simply because they could learn it so fast.  I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say that they could learn poetry as well.  Plus, if the training of the memory started early, then it would be easier in the long-run.

Peter B. Ellis does have some questionable theories and points, I agree with you.  I'm not sure if he is comparable to say, Edin McCoy, but a cup of salt is necessary when reading his work.

[Gonner]

I'm glad you posted this, because I am always looking for more resources for my own personal research, not necessarily because you were asked to pinpoint your answers with evidence. 

Of course a 12 year-old wouldn't be fit to travel alone, but perhaps s/he could go with a Senior Druid to be an "assistant" and learning all the while? 

Kids can learn very quickly.  Just as an example, I've heard many comments about schools wanted to teach elementary students foreign languages simply because they could learn it so fast.  I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say that they could learn poetry as well.  Plus, if the training of the memory started early, then it would be easier in the long-run.

Peter B. Ellis does have some questionable theories and points, I agree with you.  I'm not sure if he is comparable to say, Edin McCoy, but a cup of salt is necessary when reading his work.

I would agree in part Dara but IMO while trades are hereditary and the province of powerfull families its likely that the education that began at childhood was informal.

Brehon law poses 3 problems with the child druid scenario because 1. To hold any honour price like say the honour price of a poet you had to have adult standing the in community, 2. While trades are hereditary a poet recived formal education at a poetic school rather then at his fathers elbow and 3 while you can study for 20 years to be an ollamh they are rare.

1. You cannot have an honour price under brehon law until you come of age and because an honour price is proscribed for even the lowest poet - you probably had to be an adult before you could be a poet. Today coming of age involves living a certain amount of years because in general we dont have many rites of passage but in medieval ireland (and europe in general) you only came of age when you inherited or married. That might mean there are no child poets and from that no child druids.

2. According to medieval lit poets were educated in schools where they memorized poems in the darkness rather then learning the trade at their fathers elbows. We dont have big schools in archaeology but we know that those schools were in existence up to the 16th century because poets became literate.

3. An Ollamh has equal standing with kings of the provinces and bishops - they were the elite and there probably werent many of those around. Given their role was serving under a king of a province there were only around 10 ollamh active allowing for rivals to the kingships... if people had to learn at the elbow of an ollamh there would potentially be 100 on each guys elbow.

Those are 3 reasons but there are probably more, the reality of trad societies meant there was little or no social mobility and the reality of how fragile life was for subsistance farmers in medieval ireland meant only the elite could leave a farm for 20 years... basically an Ollamh is a big rich guy whos sons are potential ollamh they are the minority so the majority are going to be 5 year poets...

If you want to do things in the way you described Dara by all means have at it. Dont let my waffle there deter you your interpretation is as valid as mine. This is just me passing the time on a forum Im never going to tell people how to be a druid.

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