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Author Topic: Not Heathen, not Asatru, not Pagan … so what?  (Read 10195 times)
Mark C.
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« Topic Start: May 05, 2011, 11:27:37 am »

I’m wondering if anyone is aware of a term that reflects my “religious” views? The “Norse” myths and pantheon is something I feel has a great poetic depth to it. I also feel that the general worldview is one that works for me. “Heathen” is therefore a term I would have gone with, but after quite a bit of thinking I feel it is not actuate or even appropriate.

I see the myths as a poetic representation of something very real that exists within us, nature and the universe at large. However, I don’t see the myths being literarily real in the way that many heathens seem to.

I also feel the term “heathen” is poorly defined with much disagreement over what an acceptable definition of it would be. People are however very aware of what is NOT heathen and that can lead to “limitation by definition” i.e. “rouge thoughts” being criticised as being “not heathen” or a result of “modern worldview” (which as a modern human I definitely have and want to keep as part of take on the mythology, the nature of “deity”, etc.).

To be clear, it is quite right that the majority who seem themselves as heathen do their utmost to protect their identity from people, like myself, who may misrepresent the term. I don’t have any investment in the term “heathen” and hence am not prepared to argue for a place under that umbrella and would prefer something else.

A web-search for “heathen” has a few good places like here and AL pop up, but most of what you find is a depressing mix of the deluded (“Odin speaks to me over morning coffee”), Hippies and Nazis. I’d never be happy to introduce myself to someone as “heathen” as they are likely to have a very inaccurate view of me one quick web-search later.

I also struggle with the fact that “heathen” is an essentially derogatory term originating from Christianity and that my ancestors would never have used the term to describe themselves. Not that I believe what they believed as I view the mythology as a modern man with an understanding of modern science, modern psychology and a strong influence on the nature of myth from Jung, Campbell, etc.

I share the myths with my ancestors and believe it to be something that can lead to a more vigorous, inspired and meaningful life. But I view those myths differently.

I do make offerings etc, but I see that as using the mythology to connect with the things within me and around me that the mythology is a metaphor for. I do see “Thor” as real, but I don’t see the image my ancestors thought up to represent “him” as real. “He” / “it”  is what the metaphor of myth points to.

I had figured I could do without a name for my thinking and views. But that is very awkward and too “the artist formally known as Prince” for my tastes.

I’m modern poetic, non-literalist, non-folkish, heathenish type, with pantheistic, Campbellian, Jungian and even atheistic leanings (i.e. the gods presented in metaphor do not actually exist). But there has to be a better term for that! I also can’t believe that I’m the “first one of my kind” so I would expect that a word for this type of worldview already exists? Any suggestions?

Mark.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 11:36:05 am by Mark C. » Logged

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bobthesane
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« Reply #1: May 05, 2011, 01:08:42 pm »

I’m wondering if anyone is aware of a term that reflects my “religious” views? The “Norse” myths and pantheon is something I feel has a great poetic depth to it. I also feel that the general worldview is one that works for me. “Heathen” is therefore a term I would have gone with, but after quite a bit of thinking I feel it is not actuate or even appropriate.

Mark, I totally see where you are coming from and appreciate you not wanting to 'muddy the waters', as it were, regarding descriptive terminology. However, I think you may be confused about something.

Asatru is heathen. Heathenry isn't Asatru. Just like Theodism is heathen, but not the other way around.

Asatru, for example, describes a *specific faith* that falls under the heathen umbrella. Just like Wicca is pagan, but pagan isn't Wicca.

I have known several atheists who I considered to be excellent heathens. Because heathenry describes a worldview, NOT a faith. The two are complimentary, but they are not the same. I could not be a good Asatruar if I didn't at least have some conception of a heathen worldview. But I could very easily have a worldview that did not include gods, spirits, alfar, etc., because the heathen worldview dictates how you will interact with the world and people around you. You follow?

So, why couldn't you call yourself a heathen? If you have a heathenish outlook on life, and tend to interact with others based on a northern European heathen attitude, why wouldn't you wish to be called what you are? And be recognized as such by other heathens?

There are sooo many different types of heathens out there. In addition to the faith based heathens (Old Way, Forna Seden, Fornsedr, Theodism, Asatru, etc etc ad nauseum), there are strict reconstructionist heathens who reject even terms like Asatru as being 'too fluffy', my aforementioned atheist heathens, Celtic heathens... The list goes on.

Now, having said all that, I'm pretty sure someone will likely disagree with me. Oh well. Ask 3 heathens a question and get four answers Smiley. This is just how I and many others I know view heathenry vs. faith practices. YMMV.
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« Reply #2: May 05, 2011, 04:43:03 pm »


How about "Northern polytheist"?  By analogy, there are a lot of Greek-oriented types here who prefer the term "Hellenic polytheist."  It gets the point across without making a misleading claim to a specific faith, methodology, or organization.  Because both "Northern" and "polytheist" can encompass such a wide variety of perspectives, there's less incentive to do the kind of border-policing you're seeing with the term "Heathen."
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« Reply #3: May 05, 2011, 04:47:00 pm »

How about "Northern polytheist"?  By analogy, there are a lot of Greek-oriented types here who prefer the term "Hellenic polytheist."  It gets the point across without making a misleading claim to a specific faith, methodology, or organization.  Because both "Northern" and "polytheist" can encompass such a wide variety of perspectives, there's less incentive to do the kind of border-policing you're seeing with the term "Heathen."

Yeah, I like that Catja.
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« Reply #4: May 05, 2011, 05:48:03 pm »

I had figured I could do without a name for my thinking and views. But that is very awkward and too “the artist formally known as Prince” for my tastes.
*snort* ha!

I essentially agree with Bob though. While reading your post, I thought "Mark seems like a pretty good Heathen to me." lol.

If the term doesn't sit right with you, then don't use it. "Northern polytheist" seems quite practical. If you formally want to combine or formulate your views, take an eclectic path.

As for me, I say I'm Heathen because I kind of like the vagueness. And, different from you, I get a bit of a kick out of the Christianity connection. Wink

May I remind you of this thread, if you haven't seen it.
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"Silent and thoughtful a prince's son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15
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« Reply #5: May 05, 2011, 05:58:11 pm »

How about "Northern polytheist"?  By analogy, there are a lot of Greek-oriented types here who prefer the term "Hellenic polytheist."  It gets the point across without making a misleading claim to a specific faith, methodology, or organization.  Because both "Northern" and "polytheist" can encompass such a wide variety of perspectives, there's less incentive to do the kind of border-policing you're seeing with the term "Heathen."

Not a Heathen, myself, but I aggreeeee. I like that term, myself.
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« Reply #6: May 05, 2011, 06:24:05 pm »

I’m wondering if anyone is aware of a term that reflects my “religious” views? The “Norse” myths and pantheon is something I feel has a great poetic depth to it. I also feel that the general worldview is one that works for me. “Heathen” is therefore a term I would have gone with, but after quite a bit of thinking I feel it is not actuate or even appropriate.

I see the myths as a poetic representation of something very real that exists within us, nature and the universe at large. However, I don’t see the myths being literarily real in the way that many heathens seem to.

I also feel the term “heathen” is poorly defined with much disagreement over what an acceptable definition of it would be. People are however very aware of what is NOT heathen and that can lead to “limitation by definition” i.e. “rouge thoughts” being criticised as being “not heathen” or a result of “modern worldview” (which as a modern human I definitely have and want to keep as part of take on the mythology, the nature of “deity”, etc.).

To be clear, it is quite right that the majority who seem themselves as heathen do their utmost to protect their identity from people, like myself, who may misrepresent the term. I don’t have any investment in the term “heathen” and hence am not prepared to argue for a place under that umbrella and would prefer something else.

A web-search for “heathen” has a few good places like here and AL pop up, but most of what you find is a depressing mix of the deluded (“Odin speaks to me over morning coffee”), Hippies and Nazis. I’d never be happy to introduce myself to someone as “heathen” as they are likely to have a very inaccurate view of me one quick web-search later.

I also struggle with the fact that “heathen” is an essentially derogatory term originating from Christianity and that my ancestors would never have used the term to describe themselves. Not that I believe what they believed as I view the mythology as a modern man with an understanding of modern science, modern psychology and a strong influence on the nature of myth from Jung, Campbell, etc.

I share the myths with my ancestors and believe it to be something that can lead to a more vigorous, inspired and meaningful life. But I view those myths differently.

I do make offerings etc, but I see that as using the mythology to connect with the things within me and around me that the mythology is a metaphor for. I do see “Thor” as real, but I don’t see the image my ancestors thought up to represent “him” as real. “He” / “it”  is what the metaphor of myth points to.

I had figured I could do without a name for my thinking and views. But that is very awkward and too “the artist formally known as Prince” for my tastes.

I’m modern poetic, non-literalist, non-folkish, heathenish type, with pantheistic, Campbellian, Jungian and even atheistic leanings (i.e. the gods presented in metaphor do not actually exist). But there has to be a better term for that! I also can’t believe that I’m the “first one of my kind” so I would expect that a word for this type of worldview already exists? Any suggestions?

Mark.


I pretty much agree with everyone else. Also: I think all heathens have their own personal intepretation of and relationship to the lore and the mythologies. What I see, though, is an effort to understand the historical worldview as closely as we can while maintaining who we are today. There are tons of things that historically happened that we can't recreate or accept (like the sacrifice of children). Yet, heathens can understand why and find a place for the sacred in our own lives and within our expanded knowledge of the world. So, I totally think you're a heathen. Wink

But- I do think we should understand the ins and outs of the pre-christian worldview BEFORE we decide how to best place heathen concepts in our lives. That's all reconstruction means to me.
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Mark C.
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« Reply #7: May 09, 2011, 07:52:23 am »

Bob, Thank you for a hugely useful post. It did help clarify my thinking and clear up some confusion.

Mark, I totally see where you are coming from and appreciate you not wanting to 'muddy the waters', as it were, regarding descriptive terminology. However, I think you may be confused about something.

Asatru is heathen. Heathenry isn't Asatru. Just like Theodism is heathen, but not the other way around.

You are right that I have been taking the term “Heathen” to be far more specific that it is in common use it would seem. This quote was also very useful:

I have known several atheists who I considered to be excellent heathens. Because heathenry describes a worldview, NOT a faith. The two are complimentary, but they are not the same. I could not be a good Asatruar if I didn't at least have some conception of a heathen worldview. But I could very easily have a worldview that did not include gods, spirits, alfar, etc., because the heathen worldview dictates how you will interact with the world and people around you. You follow?

I totally follow that and that makes a lot of sense.

So, why couldn't you call yourself a heathen? If you have a heathenish outlook on life, and tend to interact with others based on a northern European heathen attitude, why wouldn't you wish to be called what you are? And be recognized as such by other heathens?

There are sooo many different types of heathens out there. In addition to the faith based heathens (Old Way, Forna Seden, Fornsedr, Theodism, Asatru, etc etc ad nauseum), there are strict reconstructionist heathens who reject even terms like Asatru as being 'too fluffy', my aforementioned atheist heathens, Celtic heathens... The list goes on.

From what has been made clear in this post (and others), I think “Heathen” would be OK if I had a name for the “subset” that reflected my views. If I’m picking you and others up correctly this would be like Catholics, Protestants, Southern Baptists, etc all being Christian with their specific denomination more precisely defining what kind of Christian they are?

If that’s right, what would have been a better question is “What kind of Heathen am I?”

I think if I had an answer to that question then I’d be a lot more comfortable with the term “Heathen” as the “type” would better explain and capture the more precise nature of my thinking and would eliminate the potential confusion.

Is anyone aware of a term for a “non-literal” heathen that is in relatively common use?

Thanks once again Bob. That really helped.

Mark.
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« Reply #8: May 09, 2011, 07:56:53 am »

How about "Northern polytheist"?  By analogy, there are a lot of Greek-oriented types here who prefer the term "Hellenic polytheist."  It gets the point across without making a misleading claim to a specific faith, methodology, or organization.  Because both "Northern" and "polytheist" can encompass such a wide variety of perspectives, there's less incentive to do the kind of border-policing you're seeing with the term "Heathen."

That’s brilliant! Outside of communities such as this “Northern polytheist” may be a much better term to avoid confusion via web-search or the common English usage of “Heathen”. That’s sure to prove very useful. Thank you!
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« Reply #9: May 09, 2011, 08:09:19 am »

I essentially agree with Bob though. While reading your post, I thought "Mark seems like a pretty good Heathen to me." lol.

Having taken the time to read and ponder over everyone’s comments. I think I am of the “heathen persuasion” Smiley Thank you for the clarification.

As for me, I say I'm Heathen because I kind of like the vagueness. And, different from you, I get a bit of a kick out of the Christianity connection. Wink

I can see how the vagueness can be attractive, however I think I’d be happier if I had an accurate term to define what type of Heathen I was? I’d also never looked at the Christianity connection from the perspective, but doing so certainly reduces the reservation I had Wink

Mark
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 08:35:11 am by Mark C. » Logged

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« Reply #10: May 09, 2011, 08:24:02 am »

I think all heathens have their own personal interpretation of and relationship to the lore and the mythologies. What I see, though, is an effort to understand the historical worldview as closely as we can while maintaining who we are today. There are tons of things that historically happened that we can't recreate or accept (like the sacrifice of children). Yet, heathens can understand why and find a place for the sacred in our own lives and within our expanded knowledge of the world. So, I totally think you're a heathen. Wink

The above definition is certainly what I aspire to and would indeed make a good “mission statement” for my intentions!

As I’ve written above, in light of all the feedback, I think I would be totally OK with “heathen” if I also had a term for the type of heathen I am. Is there one?

I’ve spent the weekend throwing around terms like “modern heathen”, “non-literal heathen”, “pantheistic poetic northern polytheist” (wayyyy too many P’s!), etc but none ring true and there may already be an existing term I’m not aware of?

I think “northern polytheist” is great and is sure to prove useful. I also think “heathen” would, after all, be totally fine if I could come up with something to capture the type of heathen?

This has been massively useful and I’m very grateful for everyone’s thoughts. One of the things I love about this forum is the way my “thinking aloud” gets clarified and moulded into something more concrete. Thanks everyone!

Mark
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« Reply #11: May 09, 2011, 12:27:12 pm »

The above definition is certainly what I aspire to and would indeed make a good “mission statement” for my intentions!

As I’ve written above, in light of all the feedback, I think I would be totally OK with “heathen” if I also had a term for the type of heathen I am. Is there one?

I’ve spent the weekend throwing around terms like “modern heathen”, “non-literal heathen”, “pantheistic poetic northern polytheist” (wayyyy too many P’s!), etc but none ring true and there may already be an existing term I’m not aware of?

I think “northern polytheist” is great and is sure to prove useful. I also think “heathen” would, after all, be totally fine if I could come up with something to capture the type of heathen?

This has been massively useful and I’m very grateful for everyone’s thoughts. One of the things I love about this forum is the way my “thinking aloud” gets clarified and moulded into something more concrete. Thanks everyone!

Mark

Honestly, I don't like northern polytheist. It reminds me too much of the Northern Tradition crowd and there are just as many connotations and stereotypes and crap with that. :/
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« Reply #12: May 09, 2011, 01:23:59 pm »

Honestly, I don't like northern polytheist. It reminds me too much of the Northern Tradition crowd and there are just as many connotations and stereotypes and crap with that. :/

I can see where you are coming from, but a search for “northern polytheist” brought up next to nothing on the web so could avoid problems.

“Heathen” is sadly not immune from the associations you mention. Anyone brave enough to do a youtube search for “HeatheryToday” will find that the term “Heathen” could also lead to association with things “Northern Tradition”. WARNING: Don’t watch any associated videos unless your blood pressure is dangerously low! I watched the Odin one and was an unhealthy shade of raging crimson within 60 seconds. Angry Angry Angry

I think what I need is an accurate “sub group” tag and then I’d be good with “Heathen” in light of what has been said.

Mark

PS I stand corrected! Just done a “Northern Polytheist” search on youtube to double check and it took me straight to “HeathenryToday”. OK, Heathen with qualifying subset it is!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 01:31:40 pm by Mark C., Reason: Websearch revealed I was wrong! » Logged

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« Reply #13: May 09, 2011, 05:15:29 pm »

I can see where you are coming from, but a search for “northern polytheist” brought up next to nothing on the web so could avoid problems.

“Heathen” is sadly not immune from the associations you mention. Anyone brave enough to do a youtube search for “HeatheryToday” will find that the term “Heathen” could also lead to association with things “Northern Tradition”. WARNING: Don’t watch any associated videos unless your blood pressure is dangerously low! I watched the Odin one and was an unhealthy shade of raging crimson within 60 seconds. Angry Angry Angry

Thanks for the warning. Think I'll be avoiding that, thankyouverymuch. Wink

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I think what I need is an accurate “sub group” tag and then I’d be good with “Heathen” in light of what has been said.

Before I settled on heathenry I used to label myself as a philosophical pagan. I wasn't interested in the magic or ceremony or spellwork but mainly just concerned with the mythology and how it related to me, etc etc. Maybe you'd feel comfortable with philosophical heathen? Or a philosophical lore-ist? (Lorist? Loreist? whatever).
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« Reply #14: May 10, 2011, 01:36:22 am »

As I’ve written above, in light of all the feedback, I think I would be totally OK with “heathen” if I also had a term for the type of heathen I am. Is there one?

I’ve spent the weekend throwing around terms like “modern heathen”, “non-literal heathen”, “pantheistic poetic northern polytheist” (wayyyy too many P’s!), etc but none ring true and there may already be an existing term I’m not aware of?

I think “northern polytheist” is great and is sure to prove useful. I also think “heathen” would, after all, be totally fine if I could come up with something to capture the type of heathen?

Not sure if these would be helpful to you in figuring out what 'type' of Heathen you may be, but I'm a bit of a quiz addict and stumbled upon these three quizzes recently.  I thought I'd share the links in case you might be interested in checking them out.  Who knows how accurate they are, but perhaps they might give a hint as to a label.  

http://quizilla.teennick.com/quizzes/1482778/what-type-of-heathen-are-you
http://quizilla.teennick.com/quizzes/1185340/what-kind-of-heathen-are-you-really
and http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/new/isnorden/what-kind-of-heathen-are-you-really--version-20/

Interestingly, but not entirely surprisingly, I got Modernist Heathen as my result for all three quizzes.  
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 01:46:19 am by MysticRayne, Reason: To fix urls » Logged

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