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Author Topic: Invoking Hecate  (Read 34907 times)
spoOk
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« Reply #45: June 02, 2011, 02:21:10 pm »


As far as the calling them into you or simply calling them into presence...that seems to be, as I've seen it, the particular use of some specific traditions, and from most of the conversations that I've had about it, it tends to be based on a mistaken understanding of the etymologies of the words, that a lot of people think that invoke comes from a Latin word meaning "to call within oneself" and "evoke" comes from a word meaning "to call (outside oneself)" though this isn't the case.

Etymology for invoke: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=invoke&searchmode=none

Dictionary entry for invoke: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/invoke

Etymology for evoke: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=evoke&searchmode=none

Dictionary entry for evoke: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evoke

None of these even mention the idea of calling anything within you. As I see it, that is generally some degree of possession (sometimes for lack of a batter word. Personally, I don't think that "invoke" is right in this context. Or, at the very least, it is not right to take a much more longstanding and commonly-used meaning of the word, discard it and decide that something else
 is now the correct definition.)


I stand corrected. or recorrected.
I had been going from a clearly defined definition of the 'difference' between the two from a website that seemed well informed and not overtly fluffy bunnywiccan or Wiccan style.

what others have said seems to make sense too though,that in the neowiccan/ pagan realm of things a differentiation was created to keep a clear separation between the calling into and calling in general. I also come from a background where this " drawing down the moon" term doesn't apply or isn't in common usage. I see that as a mostly Wiccan construction.

if there isn't really a difference from the deities perspective,why would they understand the difference when it is constructed by us for us?
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« Reply #46: June 02, 2011, 06:56:39 pm »

Sources, please?

Sunflower

On page 67 of The Lupercalia by Alberta Mildred Franklin it is mentioned that Hecate is attended by dogs and that they are a common sacrifice to her.  She is often portrayed with the head of a dog.  She's also well known for being strong and vindictive.
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« Reply #47: June 02, 2011, 06:59:31 pm »

Or Poseidon (god of seas and earthquakes), Demeter (goddess of getting your crops to actually grow), or Zeus (god of striking people with that proverbial thunder bolt). Why should Hekate be more different or powerful than any of the Theoi?

If you aren't involved with Agriculture pissing off Demeter is not as big of a deal.  Also she's generally portrayed as having a relatively forgiving nature.  That is not the case with Hecate.

Poseidon is a bit less forgiving, but he's not known as a Deity of revenge, which Hecate is.  Zeus is prone to revenge, in the moment.  He struck people down with lightning bolts, but he's also not one to take years ruining someone's life completely.  Hecate will.

Mind you I'd rather be on her badside than Hera's.
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« Reply #48: June 02, 2011, 07:15:03 pm »

If you aren't involved with Agriculture pissing off Demeter is not as big of a deal.  Also she's generally portrayed as having a relatively forgiving nature.  That is not the case with Hecate.

Correction:  Pissing off Demeter will cause a massive famine that will cause everyone in the area to potentially STARVE to death.  And given that today most agriculture is industrialized and feeds entire nations instead of the people in the general area....

If the myth of the Abduction of Persephone tells us anything, it's that Demeter doesn't really care how many people die when she's angry.
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« Reply #49: June 02, 2011, 08:07:52 pm »

Correction:  Pissing off Demeter will cause a massive famine that will cause everyone in the area to potentially STARVE to death.  And given that today most agriculture is industrialized and feeds entire nations instead of the people in the general area....

If the myth of the Abduction of Persephone tells us anything, it's that Demeter doesn't really care how many people die when she's angry.

Her daughter was abducted and being held captive in the kingdom of the dead and being raped.

That's a bit different than someone praying in an inconsiderate manner.
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« Reply #50: June 02, 2011, 09:31:18 pm »

On page 67 of The Lupercalia by Alberta Mildred Franklin it is mentioned that Hecate is attended by dogs and that they are a common sacrifice to her.  She is often portrayed with the head of a dog.  She's also well known for being strong and vindictive.

That's partly true but not entirely true.

Hekate is associated with black dogs and was known to have black dogs sacrificed to her at atleast two sites.  Yet part of the dog lore is also probally wrong in that as one who gathered or drove the souls of the dead might see them in dog form.  There is quite a bit of evidence that there was a belief that the spirits or souls of the dead took the form of a black dog.  Even some speculatio that I have read of Hekate having a role somewhat similiar to that of the Wild Hunt and
the dangers of encountering it in the wild barren spots that marked the liminal areas between civilization and wilderness.

Ovid, Fasti 1. 389 ff (trans.Boyle) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"I have seen Sapaeans [a Thrakian tribe] and your snow dwellers, Haemus [mountain in Thrake], offer the guts of dogs to Trivia [Hekate]."

Lycophron, Alexandra 74 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.) :
"Zerynthos [on the island of Samothrake], cave of the goddess to whom dogs are slain [Hekate]."

Suidas s.v. Zerynthia (trans. Suda On Line) (Byzantine Greek lexicon C10th A.D.) :
"Zerynthia : . . . Also Zerinthian cave, where they used to sacrifice dogs. There the mysteries of the Korybantes [Kabeiroi] and of Hekate took place."

Pausanias, Description of Greece 3. 14. 9 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) :
"I know of no other Greeks [than the Spartans sacrifices to Enyalios] who are accustomed to sacrifice puppies except the people of Kolophon; these too sacrifice a puppy, a black bitch, to Enodia (of the Wayside) [Hekate]. Both the sacrifice of the Kolophonians and that of the youths at Sparta are appointed to take place at night."

What's not shown here is that the sacrifice of dogs is a custom that orignates outside the borders of Greece.  Probally in part due to her association and placement as an Anatolian goddess.

Another facet which pertains to the dog imagery is that of Hekate as guardian of the gateway.  Dogs became associated to her in that capacity as they were often seen to linger and guard the entryway to a home, similar to the three headed figurines that were to be found in the same locations.
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« Reply #51: June 02, 2011, 09:37:52 pm »

On page 67 of The Lupercalia by Alberta Mildred Franklin it is mentioned that Hecate is attended by dogs and that they are a common sacrifice to her.  She is often portrayed with the head of a dog.  She's also well known for being strong and vindictive.

How does this support your statement that she is the reason why dogs and strong vindictive women are associated with each other?
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« Reply #52: June 02, 2011, 09:48:18 pm »

On page 67 of The Lupercalia by Alberta Mildred Franklin it is mentioned that Hecate is attended by dogs and that they are a common sacrifice to her.  She is often portrayed with the head of a dog.  She's also well known for being strong and vindictive.

I have not heard of this book before now and Google isn't giving me in reviews of it.  However, it seems to have been originally published in 1920's at the very least and that is enough to raise a red flag for me.  We have a much clearer idea of what the Ancients believed now than we did back then.  It is doubtful that a book published ninety years ago is a reliable source compared to modern scholarship.
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« Reply #53: June 02, 2011, 09:54:15 pm »

I have not heard of this book before now and Google isn't giving me in reviews of it.  However, it seems to have been originally published in 1920's at the very least and that is enough to raise a red flag for me.  We have a much clearer idea of what the Ancients believed now than we did back then.  It is doubtful that a book published ninety years ago is a reliable source compared to modern scholarship.

The Greek and Roman religions aren't some long lost religion with very few texts available, like Druidry or the Aztec religion.  The stories are well recorded, there is a wealth of imagery that has been available for a very long time.

Also, what we have discovered has added to our knowledge, not subtracted from it.  It's not like we're going to dig up some wall painting that shows that Hecate was, in fact, not attended by dogs.
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« Reply #54: June 02, 2011, 09:58:54 pm »

I have not heard of this book before now and Google isn't giving me in reviews of it.  However, it seems to have been originally published in 1920's at the very least and that is enough to raise a red flag for me.  We have a much clearer idea of what the Ancients believed now than we did back then.  It is doubtful that a book published ninety years ago is a reliable source compared to modern scholarship.

I would place more scholary credit to a book published then than many of the psuedo histories that are so prevelant in the pagan community today.  It is that very lack of scholary credentials that shows through frequently in the aruguments presented on most pagan / heathen message boards.  Not only scholarly credentials but also a severe lacking of critical anaylsis of arguments and cited information.

Not to say I'd take it blindly on faith either as there is some pretty poor works from that time frame as well.  But I wouldn't automatically say it is invalid due to its age.
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« Reply #55: June 02, 2011, 10:06:24 pm »

I would place more scholary credit to a book published then than many of the psuedo histories that are so prevelant in the pagan community today.  It is that very lack of scholary credentials that shows through frequently in the aruguments presented on most pagan / heathen message boards.  Not only scholarly credentials but also a severe lacking of critical anaylsis of arguments and cited information.

Not to say I'd take it blindly on faith either as there is some pretty poor works from that time frame as well.  But I wouldn't automatically say it is invalid due to its age.

I think now is a good a time as any to link to our article on Scholarly Books and Lookalikes .
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« Reply #56: June 02, 2011, 10:16:59 pm »

...  It's not like we're going to dig up some wall painting that shows that Hecate was, in fact, not attended by dogs.

Actually i'd like to see a wall painting or fresno that actually does show her with dogs.  The Pergamon Fresno might have a dog near her but it is not certain.  Of all the pottery paintings, fresno's or plate paintings i've only seen one that has what might be Hekate and a dog and that one is suspected to be Hekate because of twin torches but it could also be Artemis since it has a bow and arrows.
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« Reply #57: June 02, 2011, 10:23:35 pm »

Actually i'd like to see a wall painting or fresno that actually does show her with dogs.  The Pergamon Fresno might have a dog near her but it is not certain.  Of all the pottery paintings, fresno's or plate paintings i've only seen one that has what might be Hekate and a dog and that one is suspected to be Hekate because of twin torches but it could also be Artemis since it has a bow and arrows.

Here is a vase painting depicting Hekate and Cerberus:

http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T16.2.html

Not strictly the same as an image of her and a dog, but it seems somewhat close enough.
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« Reply #58: June 02, 2011, 10:35:13 pm »

Here is a vase painting depicting Hekate and Cerberus:

http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T16.2.html

Not strictly the same as an image of her and a dog, but it seems somewhat close enough.

Yeah but that is more tied to the story about Orpheus and the labors of Hercules more than Hekate.  That's why the image of Cerebus is collared and being pulled backwards by Hercules.

http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T16.5.html is the one I was speaking of on a plate
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« Reply #59: June 02, 2011, 10:36:53 pm »

Yeah but that is more tied to the story about Orpheus and the labors of Hercules more than Hekate.  That's why the image of Cerebus is collared and being pulled backwards by Hercules.

http://www.theoi.com/Gallery/T16.5.html is the one I was speaking of on a plate

Thanks.
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