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Author Topic: The People vs. Goldman Sachs  (Read 22267 times)
NyteShaed
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« Reply #60: June 08, 2011, 12:04:00 am »

I think, too, they have to take it seriously.

Regardless, though, taking his clothes was hardly a form of torture when he was talking about it.

you guys keep acting like I am saying taking his clothes was not ok.  I'm not, I am saying we should do the same thing to more people.  people who did worse things.
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sailor_tech
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« Reply #61: June 08, 2011, 06:44:39 am »

you guys keep acting like I am saying taking his clothes was not ok.  I'm not, I am saying we should do the same thing to more people.  people who did worse things.

And again, we get back to that pesky US Constition prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.  You can't take away peoples clothing as punishment unless you want to do it to all prisoners such that it is no longer unusual punishment.
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Inca
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« Reply #62: June 08, 2011, 07:07:31 am »

you guys keep acting like I am saying taking his clothes was not ok.  I'm not, I am saying we should do the same thing to more people.  people who did worse things.
Yeah, see, you're making the same mistake I keep making.

But after numerous conversation, it is apparently ok to use rules against their intent if you can make it work. So because there is a narrative that could argue that it is possible to do certain things (like taking away clothes, or keeping someone awake during the day) you can then use it to be, in all intent, cruel.

They will not use the same creativity on the rules for someone like Sachs... well, because he has friends and money. That's all there is to it, basically. Except, noone really says that out loud and there is a narrative placed on top of it with all great sounding words so that people can explain it is just that Sachs get treated the best as possible within the law, and Manning gets the worst as being permissible under law. (And then some - not having a proper trial for so long is dubious at least.)
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sailor_tech
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« Reply #63: June 08, 2011, 07:31:17 am »

(And then some - not having a proper trial for so long is dubious at least.)


The military could go to trial tomorrow. Of course Manning would not be getting a fair trial at that point since only the judges and the prosecutor could see the classified evidence. Nor would the defense have had time to review everything to see if there might be other material the prosecutors didn't think of but might clear Manning on some aspect. (This can be a two edge sword, if the defense has to get the govt [not the prosectors] to turn over more material, the prosecutors might find more evidence against Manning)

And how long did the Enron trial take from arrest of Ken Lay to start of trial? 

Complex cases take a long time. It takes time for defense lawyers to sort thru all the evidence the prosecution is obligated to turn over. Then the defense might have to ask for more stuff.
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RandallS
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« Reply #64: June 08, 2011, 07:43:51 am »

And again, we get back to that pesky US Constition prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.  You can't take away peoples clothing as punishment unless you want to do it to all prisoners such that it is no longer unusual punishment.

Even the latter might not hold up in court as society as a whole would probably still consider it "cruel and unusual punishment"
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Randall
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« Reply #65: June 08, 2011, 08:55:48 am »

you guys keep acting like I am saying taking his clothes was not ok.  I'm not, I am saying we should do the same thing to more people.  people who did worse things.

And we've pointed out that they can't. Sorry you don't like the answers, but that's the way it is.

(I'm done here. Since you haven't got the foggiest notion about definitions or the various courts and laws under which they work, and apparently no interest in educating yourself, there's no point in continuing this "conversation.")
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NyteShaed
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« Reply #66: June 08, 2011, 09:46:02 am »

And again, we get back to that pesky US Constition prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.  You can't take away peoples clothing as punishment unless you want to do it to all prisoners such that it is no longer unusual punishment.

Didn't you all just say it wasn't punishment?  It can't be punishment, they won't have even gone to trial yet.
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sailor_tech
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« Reply #67: June 08, 2011, 12:18:18 pm »

Didn't you all just say it wasn't punishment?  It can't be punishment, they won't have even gone to trial yet.

You keep saying that you want to do it to the Goldman Sachs people before trial on the sole basis of the crime they are accused of.  That's punishment. Does not matter if it's pre- or post-conviction.
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Inca
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« Reply #68: June 10, 2011, 11:19:12 am »

And how long did the Enron trial take from arrest of Ken Lay to start of trial? 

Ah, it's a quiz question, isn't it? If you want to make a point, please point. If you are interested the answer, you could try google.
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sailor_tech
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« Reply #69: June 10, 2011, 11:58:58 am »

Ah, it's a quiz question, isn't it? If you want to make a point, please point. If you are interested the answer, you could try google.


Good response. Although the actual amount of time isn't really critical. Point is that paperwork intensive trials take a very long time between arriengment and start of the main section of the trial.
Time line highlights from this article.
http://www.chron.com/news/specials/enron/timeline.html

July 2004 Ken Lay arrested
Jan 2006 Ken Lay trial starts

July 2006 Ken Lay dies. I'm not sure if there was an appeal in the works or not.
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NyteShaed
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« Reply #70: June 10, 2011, 12:00:51 pm »

Good response. Although the actual amount of time isn't really critical. Point is that paperwork intensive trials take a very long time between arriengment and start of the main section of the trial.
Time line highlights from this article.
http://www.chron.com/news/specials/enron/timeline.html

July 2004 Ken Lay arrested
Jan 2006 Ken Lay trial starts

July 2006 Ken Lay dies. I'm not sure if there was an appeal in the works or not.


What I want to know is why Lay was allowed to keep his pants.
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RandallS
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« Reply #71: June 10, 2011, 12:02:29 pm »

July 2006 Ken Lay dies. I'm not sure if there was an appeal in the works or not.

As I recall since Lay died before he could be sentenced, everything was effectively moot.
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« Reply #72: June 10, 2011, 03:13:45 pm »

What I want to know is why Lay was allowed to keep his pants.

NyteShaed,

If your only contribution to political threads is going to be whether or not someone was allowed to keep their pants, you need to stay away from those threads.
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