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Author Topic: What's Wrong with U.S.?  (Read 20658 times)
Pyperlie
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« Reply #45: June 03, 2011, 01:01:43 pm »


Do you have any idea how many people who are fans of Heinlein's writing as a body dislike that particular book?

Totally, dude.

I really wanted to like it, since it was so beloved by hippies, but like with Jonathan Livingston Seagull, they missed the mark there.  I mean, it wasn't awful like JLS, but is just wasn't as awesome as so much of his other stuff.  I liked the water-sharing concept, but just couldn't get past the blaring sexist crap.  "Nine times out of ten, if a girl gets raped, it's partly her fault," anyone?

Although, there is a Church of All Worlds.
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« Reply #46: June 03, 2011, 01:34:54 pm »

I liked the water-sharing concept, but just couldn't get past the blaring sexist crap.  "Nine times out of ten, if a girl gets raped, it's partly her fault," anyone?
Mind you, in 1961, there also weren't a lot of feminists questioning that kind of rape apologism, either.  Not saying that makes it right (there weren't a lot of active feminists then at all; the second wave was only just on the verge of beginning - and there are all too many feminists now who are perfectly happy to engage in rape apologism and slut-shaming; just because there are feminists who do it doesn't make it okay), just that it wasn't Heinlein in particular being sexist but society at that time.

OTOH, if any writer were going to be ahead of that social curve, Heinlein might have been that writer - up until 'round about then, he'd been pretty progressive in comparison to the world around him.  But, while he was a man ahead of his own times (remember he was born in 1907) he wasn't ahead of later ones - the '60s caught up to him almost as soon as they started, and rapidly passed him; from then on he was trying (sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing) to keep up.

(Damn - I'm only slightly younger than he was when it was published.  I hope I'm keeping up better than that Shocked.)

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Although, there is a Church of All Worlds.
Though it's not so much a religion for Heinlein fans as it is a religion for Stranger fans.  (And stranger fans you'll rarely meet Cheesy.)

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« Reply #47: June 03, 2011, 07:13:45 pm »

What's Wrong with U.S.?

What's wrong with those U.S is all of this ridiculous faction fighting. Obama a communist? If people really want to see communist politicians, just come to Northern Ireland. Our elections were in May, and there's still Ché Guevara flags and "Socialist Republic" banners flying here on the Falls Rd. We have politicians that want to do away with all of the grammar schools because "we're all equal", even though they secretly send their own children to them from their secret cozy mansions in Donegal.

This whole political party stuff is nonsense. Yea I'll admit when I lived there I voted for Bush, and am not ashamed. I don't consider myself a conservatist or Republican, or anything, just always waeighing my own personal policy of concerns. I though we're supposed to "support the president," in a time of war, which we're still in, and yet this isn't happening. Instead we have ridiculous wankers like these "birthers" questioning a legitimate birth because they're bigoted. Proof is the fact these issues weren't raised with John McCaine during his campaign, who was born on a military base in Panama Canal zone. If this faction fighting is the biggest news I see compared to 13 year old boys being tortured to death in Syria, then that's when we have problems.

Sorry if this is a bit random, but I'm enjoying the nice night with a few drinks. Buidéal fíona abú, agus cúpla leathghloine fósta!
   
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« Reply #48: June 03, 2011, 08:11:02 pm »

Totally, dude.

I really wanted to like it, since it was so beloved by hippies, but like with Jonathan Livingston Seagull, they missed the mark there.  I mean, it wasn't awful like JLS, but is just wasn't as awesome as so much of his other stuff.  I liked the water-sharing concept, but just couldn't get past the blaring sexist crap.  "Nine times out of ten, if a girl gets raped, it's partly her fault," anyone?

Although, there is a Church of All Worlds.

Friday.  One of the feminist I knew at the time love it, and got very upset when I told her she would be very hard pressed to find a more chauvinistic, sexist book. 
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« Reply #49: June 03, 2011, 08:57:31 pm »

Friday.  One of the feminist I knew at the time love it, and got very upset when I told her she would be very hard pressed to find a more chauvinistic, sexist book. 

I;m very feminist, but I still like James Bond.  My mother could never understand it.
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mlr52
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« Reply #50: June 03, 2011, 09:07:03 pm »

I;m very feminist, but I still like James Bond.  My mother could never understand it.

Big difference, Bond sent clear open messages, Friday message was hidden.
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« Reply #51: June 03, 2011, 09:07:20 pm »

Totally, dude.

I really wanted to like it, since it was so beloved by hippies, but like with Jonathan Livingston Seagull, they missed the mark there.  I mean, it wasn't awful like JLS, but is just wasn't as awesome as so much of his other stuff.  I liked the water-sharing concept, but just couldn't get past the blaring sexist crap.  "Nine times out of ten, if a girl gets raped, it's partly her fault," anyone?

Although, there is a Church of All Worlds.

Your friend Uday is not fan of Heinlien.  He is not liking brown peoples, so Uday is not liking him.
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mandrina
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« Reply #52: June 03, 2011, 09:11:58 pm »

Big difference, Bond sent clear open messages, Friday message was hidden.

She still couldn't understand how I could like something so chauvanistic though.  In this case, it doesn't matter whether or not the message is hidden or out in the open.

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mlr52
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« Reply #53: June 03, 2011, 09:16:07 pm »

She still couldn't understand how I could like something so chauvanistic though.  In this case, it doesn't matter whether or not the message is hidden or out in the open.

Katrina

I think buying the cover story, and not understanding the message is worse than, seeing and buying the message.
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« Reply #54: June 03, 2011, 09:53:12 pm »

Your friend Uday is not fan of Heinlien.  He is not liking brown peoples, so Uday is not liking him.

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« Reply #55: June 03, 2011, 11:53:48 pm »

I think buying the cover story, and not understanding the message is worse than, seeing and buying the message.

Oh, I never bought the message, I just liked the movies.  But I see your point.
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« Reply #56: June 04, 2011, 01:17:08 am »

[color=red][Warning cancelled. It was all a understanding. Accompanied by everyone -- including me -- being on a hair trigger from the problems of the past 24 hours. I apologize for the mistake. -- Randall, Co-Host][/color]

Is okay.  I was refer to the books "The Fifth Column" and "Farnham's Freehold", which is no mistaking Heinlien's feeling for brown peoples.  However, Uday realizes these books are written many year ago.

I am reading now Warren Ellis for working on English.  It is one very difficult language.
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« Reply #57: June 04, 2011, 05:18:35 am »

Friday.  One of the feminist I knew at the time love it, and got very upset when I told her she would be very hard pressed to find a more chauvinistic, sexist book. 
I'm pretty fond of it myself - but, yeah, it has issues.  OTOH, it's not at all difficult to find books that are more sexist.

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« Reply #58: June 04, 2011, 07:44:23 am »

I'm pretty fond of it myself - but, yeah, it has issues.  OTOH, it's not at all difficult to find books that are more sexist.

Sunflower

Chauvinist and sexist.  That was in the early 80's, and I haven't fond one yet.
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Pyperlie
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« Reply #59: June 05, 2011, 12:45:18 am »


Mind you, in 1961, there also weren't a lot of feminists questioning that kind of rape apologism, either.  Not saying that makes it right (there weren't a lot of active feminists then at all; the second wave was only just on the verge of beginning - and there are all too many feminists now who are perfectly happy to engage in rape apologism and slut-shaming; just because there are feminists who do it doesn't make it okay), just that it wasn't Heinlein in particular being sexist but society at that time.

OTOH, if any writer were going to be ahead of that social curve, Heinlein might have been that writer - up until 'round about then, he'd been pretty progressive in comparison to the world around him.  But, while he was a man ahead of his own times (remember he was born in 1907) he wasn't ahead of later ones - the '60s caught up to him almost as soon as they started, and rapidly passed him; from then on he was trying (sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing) to keep up.

Yeah, it's really a case of expecting better of him.  I mean, he was so ahead of the curve racially, it was disappointing to see him fail in other realms.

I was equally appalled by Friday.
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              -----Richard Feynman

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