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Author Topic: Taking responsibility  (Read 8610 times)
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« Topic Start: May 18, 2011, 02:38:53 pm »

There are often conversations in which someone refers to "The Rule of Three" or "karma" as a universally held belief for all who practice magic/witchcraft. A swift and firm variation of "Um... no. Not necessarily," is almost inevitably the response.

Those who don't believe in the law of threefold return or in karma, usually are clear that they take responsibility for their magic acts, and that they take that seriously.

So, for those: what does it mean, to you, to "take responsibility?" What is your responsibility? When you practice magic, what consequences do you weigh?



 
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« Reply #1: May 18, 2011, 03:12:49 pm »

There are often conversations in which someone refers to "The Rule of Three" or "karma" as a universally held belief for all who practice magic/witchcraft. A swift and firm variation of "Um... no. Not necessarily," is almost inevitably the response.

Those who don't believe in the law of threefold return or in karma, usually are clear that they take responsibility for their magic acts, and that they take that seriously.

So, for those: what does it mean, to you, to "take responsibility?" What is your responsibility? When you practice magic, what consequences do you weigh?

I actually do believe in karma in the sense of a law of attraction point of view, like attracts like. So if I am out cursing everyone ho annoys me then I am going too attract that same energy to myself. Not to mention I will be thinking about curses and the thoughts will act as a channel to manifest that energy to make icky stuff even more attracted to me. I also believe that the universe has a balance that it maintains that is too broad for me to understand all of it.

I also believe that everthing is connected to everything else, the world being the way it is allows me to manifest in the way I have. So I f I do something it will advertently or indirectly effect everything arround me and everthing arround what I have effected.

For me taking responsibility means that I think things out before I do magic to have the most desirable and balanced outcome for everyone effected. It is my responsibilty to keep myself clear when I practice magic and try to direct the energies of the spell so that the outcome is as close as I can get it to what I need.

I weigh my options, if it can be accomplished through physical means and it is a physical problem then I use physical means as appossed to magic to accomplish it. I also like to live holisically though so if it is something that can bring everything together physical, mental, spiritual actions then I do those that way I am not depending on just the magic to get it done.

I also look and see hat probable effcet the magic will have, if it is a potentiall detrimental effect then I try to alter the spell so the effect is different but it still achieves my goal.

For example if I had some icky people living next door that I told to leave me alone, but they keep bumping into me at the store, but are trying their best to leave me alone, then I would sit down and give the situation some thought. For some reason these people are being attracted to me, why? Then I would brainstorm ideas. Once I tested to see why they were attracted to me then I would remove the cause of the attraction. If I could not do that, then instead of doing a banashing spell to make them leave the nieghborhood I would do a spell that repels them from me and my house. That way I am not forcing them away or casting them out, I am just canceling out the energetic attraction with a repelent.

This is my perspective and opinions, may not resonate with everyone.
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« Reply #2: May 18, 2011, 03:18:08 pm »

There are often conversations in which someone refers to "The Rule of Three" or "karma" as a universally held belief for all who practice magic/witchcraft. A swift and firm variation of "Um... no. Not necessarily," is almost inevitably the response.

Those who don't believe in the law of threefold return or in karma, usually are clear that they take responsibility for their magic acts, and that they take that seriously.

So, for those: what does it mean, to you, to "take responsibility?" What is your responsibility? When you practice magic, what consequences do you weigh?


Not quite sure what you are getting at here.

I take responsibility for all my actions, magical or mundane and weigh up the consequences of both equally carefully.  If I'd do something without using magic then I'd be prepared to acheive the same end with magic. I don't tend to draw a distinction.
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« Reply #3: May 18, 2011, 04:00:30 pm »

I take responsibility for all my actions, magical or mundane and weigh up the consequences of both equally carefully.  If I'd do something without using magic then I'd be prepared to acheive the same end with magic. I don't tend to draw a distinction.

This, exactly.

Ethical and responsibility principles are consistent.  They don't work differently if one uses a different toolset or is addressing a different subject.  ("Magic is not a special case", "Sex is not a special case", "Whatever the heck you're on about is not a special case".  Pick what applies, y'know?)
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« Reply #4: May 18, 2011, 04:22:18 pm »

Not quite sure what you are getting at here.

I take responsibility for all my actions, magical or mundane and weigh up the consequences of both equally carefully.  If I'd do something without using magic then I'd be prepared to acheive the same end with magic. I don't tend to draw a distinction.

I was thinking that talking about different ethics and ideas around consequences and responsibility, outside of the Wiccan Rede, would be interesting. Many people say, "I take responsibility," and I'd like to discuss what that means deeper. Some people don't even know what it is to take responsibility for mundane choices, so regardless of whether there's a line or not, personal responsibility is always an important topic (in my mind, anyway) and personal responsibility as it applies specifically to magic is interesting to me... and perhaps enlightening as others share their perspectives.

For instance, if I punch someone the face, I have to weigh the consequences of bruised knuckles, legal repercussions, marring that relationship further or making it impossible to find peace with them, and damaging my reputation. Whether I am wrong or right, those are things I have to weigh. It could be that the situation is such that the punch is worth the risks/costs. This goes for what I have for breakfast, how I speak to my children, everything. Is what I'm about to do/the way I'm doing it going to achieve what I want? What are the possible outcomes, both positive and negative? Am I prepared to accept that? Is there another option that might be better? Etc.

As you said, that all goes for magic, as well. Since I practice low magic, it's not separated in my life either (although I don't want to exclude any other approaches to magic in this conversation) so the same thought process has to go into it.

And when I make a choice, I acknowledge it, whether it went the way I intended, or whether I foresaw the consequence, or whether I really intended to make that choice in the first place. Magic has actually been instrumental in moving me away from the shame/blame that is so prevalent and ultimately ineffectual. So I don't disagree with you at all; I just think the topic of magical ethics bears discussion.  Smiley


To refer back to the original question: you say "I take responsibility for all my actions" - what does that mean to you? What would you be doing differently if you DIDN'T take responsibility? How would you explain it to someone who wanted to do magic for a mundane situation because it seemed like an easier, less complicated choice than physical action or interaction?


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« Reply #5: May 18, 2011, 04:56:01 pm »




To refer back to the original question: you say "I take responsibility for all my actions" - what does that mean to you? What would you be doing differently if you DIDN'T take responsibility?





IMO  whether  you take responsibility or not, as an adult you cannot usually avoid the consequences of what you do - and yes I've learned that the hard way and I'm sure I'm not alone there.  By taking the responsibility  I mean that I accept those consequences whether good or bad, intended or unintended.


 How would you explain it to someone who wanted to do magic for a mundane situation because it seemed like an easier, less complicated choice than physical action or interaction?

I'm not sure I would even bother to try tbh.  I might suggest that they try more mundane methods first but in my experience a good proportion of  those who planning to use magic in these circumstances are unlikely to listen anyway.  Sometimes learning the hard way can't be avoided. I've seen this enough in the day job. What I do seems easy enough and it is if you know what you are doing. If you don't it can be a recipe for a complete disaster. I've got very good at NOT saying "I told you so!"

  

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« Reply #6: May 18, 2011, 04:59:35 pm »

So, for those: what does it mean, to you, to "take responsibility?" What is your responsibility? When you practice magic, what consequences do you weigh?

The exact same things I would consider if I were going to do X without using magic. The moral issues are with what I want to do (and, in some cases, why I am doing it), not with whether I use magic to do it or not. So I consider the consequences of what I am doing, not the tool I use to do it.
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« Reply #7: May 19, 2011, 04:38:40 am »

"I take responsibility for all my actions" - what does that mean to you? What would you be doing differently if you DIDN'T take responsibility? How would you explain it to someone who wanted to do magic for a mundane situation because it seemed like an easier, less complicated choice than physical action or interaction?

Just jumping off of this post to answer the original question. For me, taking responsibilty for my actions (whether magic or mundane) means figuring out what I'm trying to acheive, deciding if that is actually the best outcome, evaluate the possible consequences - both good and bad- and whether or not I'm willing to accept those consequences. Obviously I can't forsee everything but if I'm satisfied that I took the best course of action with the information I had then I can accept whatever consequences arise.

For me, taking responsibilty can also mean recognising that I do not have enough information to make a responsible decision and being responsible in that situation can mean doing research, seeking advice etc. For example, at the moment I have to decide whether to allow doctors to operate on my daughter in order to rule out a health problem that they don't really think she has. I feel that I do not have enough knowledge to make an informed decision so I'm doing research into both the health issue to be ruled out and the proposed operation and seeking further advice from other doctors. I know that's a mundane situation but it's the same reasoning that I apply to mundane or magical decisions.

Another aspect of taking responsibilty for me is to be willing to try and put things right if I make a mistake. I'm finding it hard to think of an example here because I haven't been in the situation yet. But say I did a working to make my veg on my little patch of garden grow well. And then they grew so well that they took over the neighbour's garden as well, then I would have to put that right. I guess that in this example it would mean undoing the working and then taking care of my neighbour's garden to get it back to what it was before.

If I wasn't taking responsibilty for my actions then I would do things without thought whenever I felt like it and I wouldn't be willing to accept the consequences or work to re-dress the balance if something goes wrong. For me not taking responsibilty brings to mind someone who blames everything in their life on something external. For example "I can't get a job because of the economy not because I haven't applied for any. My dinner is burnt so the cooker must be broken it can't possibly be because I spent half an hour on facebook and forgot I was cooking" etc etc.

If someone wants to use magical means because they believe it's easier than mundane means or think it's a quick fix then I would try and explain to them that it's not a quick fix and is often more draining than a mundane solution. Or will work best alongside mundane action. From recent experience though I'm not sure that those explanations would do much to dissuade someone. It's probably something that has to be learned through experience.

I've just realised that this an enormous post and I'm not sure if it's exactly what you're looking for so I'll leave it here. Feel free to ask me to clarify anything i've said Cheesy.

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« Reply #8: May 19, 2011, 05:42:55 am »

To refer back to the original question: you say "I take responsibility for all my actions" - what does that mean to you? What would you be doing differently if you DIDN'T take responsibility? How would you explain it to someone who wanted to do magic for a mundane situation because it seemed like an easier, less complicated choice than physical action or interaction?

For me it means not claiming some external cause or authority for my actions. No-one and nothing can make me do something. I always have a choice. My choices may be constrained and I may be coerced, but the choice is mine. The cat that you were threatening to shoot me did not make me shoot you first. I chose to take your life rather than let you take mine and I'm either OK with that or I'm not, but I can't try and make it OK by pretending that you made me do it. That would be not taking responsibvility for my actions. In a similar vein, stealing to feed my starving children is still stealing and (to the extent that I believe stealing is wrong) it is still wrong. Doesn't mean I wouldn't do it, just that I'm honest about it and take responsibility for what I did, without dressing it up to try and make it pretty.
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« Reply #9: May 19, 2011, 07:20:01 am »

There are often conversations in which someone refers to "The Rule of Three" or "karma" as a universally held belief for all who practice magic/witchcraft. A swift and firm variation of "Um... no. Not necessarily," is almost inevitably the response.

Those who don't believe in the law of threefold return or in karma, usually are clear that they take responsibility for their magic acts, and that they take that seriously.

This is a great thread with some great responses which I'm still having a bit of a think about.  I was getting a bit confused with the word ‘responsibility’ in this context so I cheated and looked it up here lol

http://www.shadowdrake.com/ethics.html


It seems to me that with the Wiccan rede plus the three-fold law, you have a moral code which (a) is universally applicable to any situation, (b) treats everybody equally and without bias, and (c) has an automatic punishment for violation with actions like cursing etc.  However, with traditional witchcraft (and cunning folk like Peter Paddon) you seem to have (a) situation based ethics, (b) a bias towards family, the self and “tribe” etc over others and (c) possible, but not certain, negative repercussions, in varying degrees, for such actions like cursing etc

It seems to me with traditional witchcraft etc, ‘responsibility’ means taking responsibility in working out what someone personally feels is the right thing for them to do in a particular situation (rather than just following a universally applicable moral code) and also what would most benefit people important to them. ‘Responsibility’ would also be accepting that there may be consequences (magical/energetic etc) of doing a particular action (I seem to remember that being called paying the coin), and doing it anyway, accepting them and not blaming them on anyone/anything else.

So, for those: what does it mean, to you, to "take responsibility?"

For me, it basically means what it does for traditional witches etc (if I understood it correctly).

When you practice magic, what consequences do you weigh?

As with others, the same consequences when I'm not practising magic.

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« Reply #10: May 19, 2011, 08:57:20 am »

There are often conversations in which someone refers to "The Rule of Three" or "karma" as a universally held belief for all who practice magic/witchcraft. A swift and firm variation of "Um... no. Not necessarily," is almost inevitably the response.

Someone explained the 3-fold rule to me in a slightly different manner than it's normally viewed. Basically, it was the idea of for every spell/action/energy influx there are 3 results - one you can see, two that you can't. Responsibility for your actions/magic comes not just from being accountable for the immediate action (ie, banishing a person from your home) but understanding that there will be longer term effects on them that you might be able to predict, but most likely you cannot, so everything should be considered not just for the immediate to the mid term and the long term effects as well (ie, the banished person can not find a home, and winds up homeless). If you can do the action and comfortably know it's worth the unknown 2 consequences, and have done your best to avoid the worst scenarios, then by all means, go ahead and cast the spell.

She described it also as "You don't need an axe to trim a stem, so why would you use your best tricks for small things? It's overkill, and risks more injury than good." (She was a gardener, can you tell?)

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« Reply #11: May 19, 2011, 06:31:49 pm »



Something about this has been worrying me all night... How does believing in the Law of Return/Rule of Three in any way diminish (or even impact) responsibility, other than by changing the nature of what you are taking personal responsibility for? Am I missing something here?
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« Reply #12: May 19, 2011, 10:49:39 pm »

Something about this has been worrying me all night... How does believing in the Law of Return/Rule of Three in any way diminish (or even impact) responsibility, other than by changing the nature of what you are taking personal responsibility for? Am I missing something here?

I didn't mean to imply that, if I did. Believing in the Rule of Three or Law of Return (or not) doesn't reflect in any way the personal responsibility taken by someone. I'm just going off conversations like the kind I mentioned, where someone acts like the threefold law is something all Pagans hold as a belief, and others say that it is not part of their beliefs but that they take responsibility. I  wanted to explore that a little, and I've been finding it an interesting conversation even though I haven't had a chance to participate today.

 

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« Reply #13: May 19, 2011, 10:57:07 pm »

I was getting a bit confused with the word ‘responsibility’ in this context so I cheated and looked it up here lol

http://www.shadowdrake.com/ethics.html

It seems to me that with the Wiccan rede plus the three-fold law, you have a moral code which (a) is universally applicable to any situation, (b) treats everybody equally and without bias, and (c) has an automatic punishment for violation with actions like cursing etc.  However, with traditional witchcraft (and cunning folk like Peter Paddon) you seem to have (a) situation based ethics, (b) a bias towards family, the self and “tribe” etc over others and (c) possible, but not certain, negative repercussions, in varying degrees, for such actions like cursing etc

It seems to me with traditional witchcraft etc, ‘responsibility’ means taking responsibility in working out what someone personally feels is the right thing for them to do in a particular situation (rather than just following a universally applicable moral code) and also what would most benefit people important to them. ‘Responsibility’ would also be accepting that there may be consequences (magical/energetic etc) of doing a particular action (I seem to remember that being called paying the coin), and doing it anyway, accepting them and not blaming them on anyone/anything else.

For me, it basically means what it does for traditional witches etc (if I understood it correctly).
Traditional witches, particularly those who put a good deal of emphasis on exactly how they aren't Wiccan, aren't the best source for how Wicca approaches things.

Of course, "how Wicca approaches things" isn't a monolith; it depends on what you mean by "Wicca" - for many NeoWiccans, the Rede is indeed a moral code, and the Threefold Law a description of retribution.  But for most if not all BTW, and a great many Eclectic Wiccans, the Rede is advice (which is exactly what the word "rede" means - and the advice the Rede gives is not "harm none"), and the Law of Return simply a (somewhat poetic) description of how consequence works.  They, too, practice situational ethics.

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« Reply #14: May 21, 2011, 04:39:57 am »

Traditional witches, particularly those who put a good deal of emphasis on exactly how they aren't Wiccan, aren't the best source for how Wicca approaches things.

Of course, "how Wicca approaches things" isn't a monolith; it depends on what you mean by "Wicca" - for many NeoWiccans, the Rede is indeed a moral code, and the Threefold Law a description of retribution.  But for most if not all BTW, and a great many Eclectic Wiccans, the Rede is advice (which is exactly what the word "rede" means - and the advice the Rede gives is not "harm none"), and the Law of Return simply a (somewhat poetic) description of how consequence works.  They, too, practice situational ethics.

Sunflower

My apologies, if my post was unclear.

The reason I mentioned the quote was because I thought it might be helpful to look at how and why someone used the words ‘take responsibility’ in the context of this thread.

The main eclectic Wiccan I have known certainly viewed the rede as advice and the law of return as poetic. Valiente also seems to express similar views, if I recall her books correctly. Paddon I think was trained an Alexandrian high priest and has a similar stance to House Shadow Drake, although the former is a lot more respectful towards Wicca than the latter.

When I said the rede (or bits of it) seems to me to be a moral code, all I really meant was that there were certain statements that seemed to be moral or to contain ‘moral language’ and which could be fitted together.  Whether the rede was actually meant to be literal or poetic or advice etc, or what Wiccans do with it, or even what Wicca is, are all separate issues, for me, to this: it was just an example to try and understand what it means to take responsibility.


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