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Author Topic: When the multiverse and many-worlds collide  (Read 11148 times)
Mithril
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« Reply #15: June 03, 2011, 04:34:49 am »

I may be missing something, because I don't see how it's possible to control an infinite number of me's across the universe without essentially being God. Or why on earth you'd be responsible for the choices of yourself in another universe, or why they're all considered the same 'you'.

An infinity of other Universes haven't been running parallel since the beginning of time! Think of it like a tree. One started. There was a random event. Both happened; the universe split into two. All the way to you. Everytime you make a decision, the universe splits and there is now an EXTRA Ellen, who's life and yours was one but who is now separate from you because she is a product of the opposite decision.
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« Reply #16: June 03, 2011, 07:54:15 am »

An infinity of other Universes haven't been running parallel since the beginning of time! Think of it like a tree. One started. There was a random event. Both happened; the universe split into two. All the way to you. Everytime you make a decision, the universe splits and there is now an EXTRA Ellen, who's life and yours was one but who is now separate from you because she is a product of the opposite decision.

If that's how the multiverse works, then I can see where you're coming from.
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« Reply #17: June 03, 2011, 07:56:32 am »

This article has convinced me of something I have suspected all along. I have no idea about physics and the very thought of  parallel universes makes my head hurt.

Both the multiverse and the Many Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics can make physicists' heads hurt. Combining them just makes the headache worse. Smiley
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« Reply #18: June 03, 2011, 07:59:23 am »

This article has convinced me of something I have suspected all along. I have no idea about physics and the very thought of  parallel universes makes my head hurt.

I have a very slight, layman's idea about physics, and it makes my brain hurt.

The one layman's crazy idea I have to contribute is where the article says "one remaining question is how information can leak from a causal patch, a supposedly self-contained volume of the multiverse."

My crazy answer: Black holes (tears in the fabric of space from superdense gravity sources like a giant dying star). As I understand it, one of the laws of physics is that information can't be lost from the universe; you can burn a piece of paper with info written on it, but theoretically you could monitor the smoke and ash, the patterns of its wafting and crumbling, and reconstruct what the paper said. But black holes blow that wide open, because anything that falls into a black hole can't be retrieved (light, for example, which is why it's a black hole)--so whatever information you could've reconstructed is lost once something is sucked down the black hole. This violates that fundamental law of physics.

So what if black holes are how information can leak from a causal patch? That would explain the universe's decoherence, while also providing the loophole to that fundamental law of physics (the info isn't lost if you take a multiverse perspective instead of a universe perspective).

I'm talking completely out of my ass here.
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« Reply #19: June 03, 2011, 08:14:58 am »

My crazy answer: Black holes (tears in the fabric of space from superdense gravity sources like a giant dying star). As I understand it, one of the laws of physics is that information can't be lost from the universe; you can burn a piece of paper with info written on it, but theoretically you could monitor the smoke and ash, the patterns of its wafting and crumbling, and reconstruct what the paper said. But black holes blow that wide open, because anything that falls into a black hole can't be retrieved (light, for example, which is why it's a black hole)--so whatever information you could've reconstructed is lost once something is sucked down the black hole. This violates that fundamental law of physics.

According to current theories this isn't quite true. Black holes don't last forever. Quantum mechanics says they lose the material and information they have locked inside their event horizon via Hawking radiation. Even the largest black holes will evaporate given enough time.

Quote
So what if black holes are how information can leak from a causal patch? That would explain the universe's decoherence, while also providing the loophole to that fundamental law of physics (the info isn't lost if you take a multiverse perspective instead of a universe perspective).

As we have never seen a black hole actually evaporate, my comments above might be incorrect. If so, your ideas could be true.
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« Reply #20: June 03, 2011, 10:01:59 am »

Both the multiverse and the Many Worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics can make physicists' heads hurt. Combining them just makes the headache worse. Smiley

Now I start being afraid, because my head's not hurting.  Cheesy
It just all makes sense.

But then, I'm not a physicist.  Wink
And I accept the fact, that I can never know really what's the deal.  Grin
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« Reply #21: June 03, 2011, 04:25:05 pm »

According to current theories this isn't quite true. Black holes don't last forever. Quantum mechanics says they lose the material and information they have locked inside their event horizon via Hawking radiation. Even the largest black holes will evaporate given enough time.


Oh well. So much for that theory.
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« Reply #22: June 03, 2011, 04:27:51 pm »

Oh well. So much for that theory.

Opps. It seems I was partially wrong: they are still arguing on whether or not black holes eventually give back the information as well as the mass.  Sorry about the misinfo.
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« Reply #23: June 03, 2011, 06:56:04 pm »

...whatever information you could've reconstructed is lost once something is sucked down the black hole. This violates that fundamental law of physics.

The information isn't really lost to the universe, it's just inaccessible (by any currently-known means) from the portion of the universe that's outside of the black hole. You could think of it (loosely) like having stuff inside a room that can be entered, but never left, in your house. The stuff's still in there, but you can't go in and get it and then come back to what you were doing and you're not sure what state it's in (it could be going mouldy, or being eaten by rats and silverfish). You could go in and check and sit around and play with your stuff (if it's still in a fit state to be played with), but you can't come back out and tell anyone what's going down in there. Main point is that it's still in your house, you still have it, but it's only accessible if you're in the room with it.
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« Reply #24: June 03, 2011, 07:01:05 pm »

An infinity of other Universes haven't been running parallel since the beginning of time! Think of it like a tree. One started. There was a random event. Both happened; the universe split into two. All the way to you. Everytime you make a decision, the universe splits and there is now an EXTRA Ellen, who's life and yours was one but who is now separate from you because she is a product of the opposite decision.

Except that it isn't nice tidy, binary splits; ity's more like smashing a mirror at every point where more than one thing is possible under the prevailing conditions and there is no single, right version. Every version is fracturing all the time and the only thing you can be sure that the one you have experienced has as a point of cohession is the fact of your experience. Bassically, what makes this universe 'special' is nothing beside the fact that you remember it.
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« Reply #25: June 03, 2011, 07:04:35 pm »

I may be missing something, because I don't see how it's possible to control an infinite number of me's across the universe without essentially being God. Or why on earth you'd be responsible for the choices of yourself in another universe, or why they're all considered the same 'you'.

I think the point being made was that at any given point that you experienced as a choice there actually wasn't a choice, because the you (at that instant) chose every possible alternative. Each alternative spawned a new universe in which there is a version of you (assuming a non-lethal choice) who remembers making only the choice that their universe is founded on, just as you remember choosing only a single outcome.
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« Reply #26: June 04, 2011, 05:48:15 am »

The information isn't really lost to the universe, it's just inaccessible (by any currently-known means) from the portion of the universe that's outside of the black hole. You could think of it (loosely) like having stuff inside a room that can be entered, but never left, in your house. The stuff's still in there, but you can't go in and get it and then come back to what you were doing and you're not sure what state it's in (it could be going mouldy, or being eaten by rats and silverfish). You could go in and check and sit around and play with your stuff (if it's still in a fit state to be played with), but you can't come back out and tell anyone what's going down in there. Main point is that it's still in your house, you still have it, but it's only accessible if you're in the room with it.
Hmm, that's a whole lot like my protein 'puter's WOM* (write-only memory) Cheesy.

(*Coinage cred to my bud J. Random Catholic.)

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« Reply #27: June 04, 2011, 06:31:48 am »

Except that it isn't nice tidy, binary splits; ity's more like smashing a mirror at every point where more than one thing is possible under the prevailing conditions and there is no single, right version. Every version is fracturing all the time and the only thing you can be sure that the one you have experienced has as a point of cohession is the fact of your experience. Bassically, what makes this universe 'special' is nothing beside the fact that you remember it.

Ha yes of course you're right. I was going more for 'simple'. ^_^
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« Reply #28: June 04, 2011, 04:18:52 pm »

According to current theories this isn't quite true. Black holes don't last forever. Quantum mechanics says they lose the material and information they have locked inside their event horizon via Hawking radiation. Even the largest black holes will evaporate given enough time.

Sort of like Jupiter's Great Red Spot?

Quote
As we have never seen a black hole actually evaporate, my comments above might be incorrect. If so, your ideas could be true.

Either way, none of us will be around when it happens. (At least, in these incarnations....) Wink
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 04:21:05 pm by RandallS, Reason: Quote BBCode Fixed » Logged
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« Reply #29: June 05, 2011, 07:25:29 am »

Opps. It seems I was partially wrong: they are still arguing on whether or not black holes eventually give back the information as well as the mass.  Sorry about the misinfo.

A glimmer of hope for the theory persists! Yeah, I seem to recall Hawking making a bet with another physicist about what's really happening with the info going down black holes...suggesting that the debate is still on.

Another theory about black holes and a possible multiverse (I remember reading about this in layman's terms years ago) suggested that all the matter pouring down a black hole may actually form a new pocket universe; that in fact, our own universe may be the pocket universe of another universe, spawned by a black hole in that universe; and that effectively black holes may be the mechanism by which universes "procreate", and one could build a whole genealogical tree of universes...except that there's no way of communicating from one to the next and thus no way to prove the existence of these other parent-child universes and therefore no way to prove the theory.
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