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Melamphoros
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« Reply #285: June 08, 2011, 06:05:41 pm »

anyone  have anymore  of that  alcohol laced  watermelon kicking around?

Alcohol laced watermelon?  Why am I not surprised that this thread turned into a food discussion while I was out of town? Cheesy
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« Reply #286: June 08, 2011, 06:18:59 pm »

I will give you an example. Back in the old days, "top-posting", putting your new texts above the quotes, was simply not acceptable. People would get ripped a new hole for top-posting. There was a very valid reason for this; because of the way almost all BBS and Usenet software displayed messages, top-posting made it very difficult to follow the conversation. But... times changed, software changed, and in many cases, it made far more sense to top-post. Some people really resisted it... it made them angry, because it was simple Not The Way We Do Things. It wasn't tradition. But most admins realized that continuing to punish or ban users for top-posting wasn't helpful, and changed the rules to accommodate new online customs.

And those of us who don't like reading upside-down avoid places that did that, because none of that "it makes more sense" has changed the order in which we read things. Wink
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« Reply #287: June 08, 2011, 07:21:59 pm »


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I would have, but it was expressly stated earlier that it was being done purposefully to derail the discussion. My only point about that, with any discussion, is that it feels disrespectful to the people still engaging in the discussion.

Yes, expressly stated. However, IMO, it was stated in a lighthearted, humorous sort of way. Not a we're tired of this, shut up now, sort of way. But, I guess it's all a matter of perception.

Quote
In my personal opinion, making suggestions for ways to better operate a forum, or offering one's opinion on why different ways can be better, isn't inherently disrespectful. No one is perfect, not even people who run or mod forums, and in addition, sometimes rules or policies are changed not because they were bad, but because times changed.

This is very true. However, things like required quoting (the original topic of this thread)and public moderation, aren't going to change. How do I know it won't change? Because the Hosts, (you know, the people who own this forum and make all of the decisions) have said so. They have also given ample explanations of why. Repeatedly.  A situation like this, with people continuing to push the issue after it has been resolved, reads a lot like trying to get what you (general, not you specifically) want by wearing them down. That, is what I consider disrespectful in this thread.

Quote
... it made them angry, because it was simple Not The Way We Do Things. It wasn't tradition. But most admins realized that continuing to punish or ban users for top-posting wasn't helpful, and changed the rules to accommodate new online customs.

This isn't about tradition. My take? This is about a small number of people deciding that the rules here don't work for them, therefore, the rules must be faulty and must need to be changed. People keep missing the fact that the majority of us who have spoken up on this issue, are perfectly happy with the way things work around here.

Not because we don't want to learn something new, or because that's the way it's always been, but because these rules work! You don't see the same sorts of things going on here, that you see in other forums. Guess why, because of the rules. Heck, in lots of other forums I've been to without this kind of structure, this whole conversation would have degenerated into name calling and flaming by now.

I trust our Hosts to make changes as they see fit for the benefit of the whole community. That's not to say that a person shouldn't ask questions, or make suggestions. In fact, there's a thread for that.

Quote
Allowing ongoing polite discussion of how users feel about rules, what rules are helpful in what ways, and why, allows admins to stay abreast of shifting needs and online customs, if need be, and are generally more helpful than harmful

And again, no one has tried to stop you from continuing the discussion. Also, IMO, pushing a dead issue comes across as disruptive, pointless, and seams much more harmful than helpful.
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« Reply #288: June 08, 2011, 07:57:23 pm »

Yes, expressly stated. However, IMO, it was stated in a lighthearted, humorous sort of way. Not a we're tired of this, shut up now, sort of way. But, I guess it's all a matter of perception.

It is a particular peeve of mine... deliberately derailing other people's conversations, humorously or otherwise, just feels disrespectful. And my objections aren't about the topic of this thread specifically, or any other specific instance, but the general practice, and I wanted to express my feelings about it when it came up.

I am in favor of the quoting rule, for the record. I don't want it to change, the opinions I have expressed are not about that. Nor do I prefer top-posting unless I'm reading Usenet using a mailreader, in which case it's vastly preferable to bottom posting. Neither of those things are what I am expressing my opinion about, nor am I in the slightest bit interested in arguing about them. Rather, I was explaining why I think discussion of rules can be helpful.
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« Reply #289: June 08, 2011, 08:23:12 pm »

And those of us who don't like reading upside-down avoid places that did that, because none of that "it makes more sense" has changed the order in which we read things. Wink
Myself, I don't object to top-posting per se (though I don't think I have ever been anywhere where doing so made more sense than not doing so); what I object to is the yards and yards of untrimmed nested quotes containing every flippin' word in the entire convo going back to its origins in the promordial ooze, being reiterated over and over.

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« Reply #290: June 08, 2011, 08:51:11 pm »

Myself, I don't object to top-posting per se (though I don't think I have ever been anywhere where doing so made more sense than not doing so); what I object to is the yards and yards of untrimmed nested quotes containing every flippin' word in the entire convo going back to its origins in the promordial ooze, being reiterated over and over.

Sunflower

That bugs me too. It got especially bad on Usenet, when many people couldn't easily prune their quotes.
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« Reply #291: June 08, 2011, 09:17:14 pm »

I would have, but it was expressly stated earlier that it was being done purposefully to derail the discussion. My only point about that, with any discussion, is that it feels disrespectful to the people still engaging in the discussion.

While I would normally be inclined to agree with you, given both Hosts had clearly stated (twice in my case, as i recall) that neither private moderation nor public discussion of specific moderation was going to happen and had explain our reasoning until we were sick of the discussion, I welcomed the change of subject.

Quote
In my personal opinion, making suggestions for ways to better operate a forum, or offering one's opinion on why different ways can be better, isn't inherently disrespectful.

Of course it isn't, but once the ideas have been considered, rejected,and the reasons why explained in detail, dragging the discssion on and on going over basically the same points wears people out.

Quote
I will give you an example. Back in the old days, "top-posting", putting your new texts above the quotes, was simply not acceptable.

It's still not acceptable here. There's no rule against it because no one does it, but if a bunch of people decided to ignore obvious forum custom and start "top-posting" and continued to do it after being asked not to, you can bet a rule against it would quickly appear. We aren't a business that needs a complete record of the discussion in every post nor are people forced to use Microsoft Outlook (which, in many versions, made it very hard not to top-post) to post here. Smiley

This isn't because we will not change with the times but because will see no reason to trade a system that works for what we need for what some have decided is the latest and greatest when said latest and greatest works worse for our discussions than what we have. Just like we continue to ban "netspeak" in our posts because messages here do not have very limited message lengths like cell phone texting and Twitter does. It doesn't matter how common netspeak has become, we see no reason to put up with it here.
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« Reply #292: June 08, 2011, 10:46:16 pm »

deliberately derailing other people's conversations, humorously or otherwise, just feels disrespectful.

This.

I'm not against thread drift.  I am against thread hijack.

But since we're here, I'll bring the Limoncello.
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« Reply #293: June 08, 2011, 10:58:03 pm »


who wants  watermelon soaked in vodka

Now that is something I never would have thought of!
What a great idea!

Cut a hole in the top of a whole watermelon, to fit the neck of the bottle.  Use skewers to bore into the flesh through neck-hole.  Upend bottle and let seep into watermelon overnight.
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« Reply #294: June 09, 2011, 02:09:28 am »

Now that is something I never would have thought of!
What a great idea!


Cut a hole in the top of a whole watermelon, to fit the neck of the bottle.  Use skewers to bore into the flesh through neck-hole.  Upend bottle and let seep into watermelon overnight.

Other trick is to use a funnel. Stab the funnel through the rind and into the flesh. Pour vodka into the melon and keep topping up as requires. (Raspberry liqueur works very well, too).
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« Reply #295: June 09, 2011, 02:33:13 am »

I would have, but it was expressly stated earlier that it was being done purposefully to derail the discussion. My only point about that, with any discussion, is that it feels disrespectful to the people still engaging in the discussion.

Actually, what was stated was that several people, talking in chat, wished that this topic would either just end or derail soon as it was going nowhere. The next person to reply stated that a derail was in process, which is stating the truth. As one of those involved in the thread 'derailing', I would actually say that it started as a tangent or an aside. The original conversation was still in progress for those that wish to carry on. This happens rather a lot on TC (quite a lot, now I come to think of it....) and it isn't neccessarily a bad thing. It can lighten the mood of what is turning into a tense situation very well. My question to you, therefore, is this:- how many times do people have to state that 'this is how it works here-these are the rules and that is the end of it' before others believe them and stop haranguing them about it?
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« Reply #296: June 09, 2011, 07:38:30 am »

<snippage>
My question to you, therefore, is this:- how many times do people have to state that 'this is how it works here-these are the rules and that is the end of it' before others believe them and stop haranguing them about it?

You took the words right out of my mouth. (Apologies to Meatloaf, perhaps.)
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« Reply #297: June 09, 2011, 07:43:27 am »

You took the words right out of my mouth. (Apologies to Meatloaf, perhaps.)


Definately!  Cheesy
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« Reply #298: June 09, 2011, 08:23:58 am »

. The next person to reply stated that a derail was in process, which is stating the truth.

That  was  me and  really  it was meant as a joke  more or  less  to  lighten the mood   of the thread.  Both co hosts  have already said the rules are not  changing, looks like a  majority  of  members don't want the rules  changed, what  more it  there  to  discuss? Food!!!
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« Reply #299: June 09, 2011, 08:35:02 am »

That  was  me and  really  it was meant as a joke  more or  less  to  lighten the mood   of the thread.  Both co hosts  have already said the rules are not  changing, looks like a  majority  of  members don't want the rules  changed, what  more it  there  to  discuss? Food!!!

I know. That's kind of where I was going with that.  Wink
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