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Author Topic: Do you guys really think love spells work?  (Read 83359 times)
catherine
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« Reply #270: June 11, 2011, 04:21:34 pm »


So, this is my understanding of your post. Some women have lied about being raped. Therefore, it should be assumed that all women are lying when they claim they've been raped. Therefore, they must prove to the relevant authorities that they have, in fact, been raped by the person they are accusing, and they must also prove that they weren't "asking for it" before they are entitled to so much as an investigation into the incident. Because to do otherwise, assumes that all men are rapists.

Is that your stand on male victims of rape and sexual assault too? How about children?
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« Reply #271: June 11, 2011, 04:22:54 pm »

Or situations in which either women or men were raped by women.  Again: not a gender issue.

Excellent point, thank you!
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« Reply #272: June 11, 2011, 04:35:03 pm »

Excellent point, thank you!

Oh gods... this reminds of an infuriating argument I had at Bryn Mawr with a misandronist who claimed it was impossible for a man to be raped or a woman to rape because a woman "doesn't have it in her." I think I got too mad to properly end the argument and just walked off.
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« Reply #273: June 11, 2011, 04:38:03 pm »

Oh gods... this reminds of an infuriating argument I had at Bryn Mawr with a misandronist who claimed it was impossible for a man to be raped or a woman to rape because a woman "doesn't have it in her." I think I got too mad to properly end the argument and just walked off.

You're far more patient and stronger than I, I would've thumped the bigot.

Women and men are equally capable of sexual assault and it sickens me that survivors of rape are treated so incredibly badly by our society particularly male survivors. No one should be doubted, mocked, or blamed after surviving that kind of violation. No one.
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« Reply #274: June 11, 2011, 04:58:41 pm »

Oh gods... this reminds of an infuriating argument I had at Bryn Mawr with a misandronist who claimed it was impossible for a man to be raped or a woman to rape because a woman "doesn't have it in her." I think I got too mad to properly end the argument and just walked off.

Wow. That's insulting to both women and men! If you're anything like me, walking off was probably the best choice at that point.
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« Reply #275: June 11, 2011, 05:03:54 pm »

Wow. That's insulting to both women and men! If you're anything like me, walking off was probably the best choice at that point.

At a certain point my ability to play nice falls away into "oh my GOD you're so stupid! How do you remember to breathe?" which... really isn't conducive to making a point. >< So yeah, when I'm not online and can't just lurk, I usually stay away from heated things like that.

While I understand now that feminism is really, really diverse, my time at Bryn Mawr was riddled with individuals like the one I'd mentioned who were all GIRL POWER at the expense of men. I wasn't able to articulate it at the time, but my own gender issues were dragging me very far away from identifying as female, so I wasn't able to find that many places for me. Furthermore, there was a lot of "you should follow this doctrine because you're female so it MUST speak to you!" and, well... I still have a really negative reaction to the word "feminism." I don't feel comfortable using that label for myself, but I've been assured by many people that apparently I make a good one. Grin
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« Reply #276: June 11, 2011, 05:28:14 pm »

So, this is my understanding of your post. Some women have lied about being raped. Therefore, it should be assumed that all women are lying when they claim they've been raped. Therefore, they must prove to the relevant authorities that they have, in fact, been raped by the person they are accusing, and they must also prove that they weren't "asking for it" before they are entitled to so much as an investigation into the incident. Because to do otherwise, assumes that all men are rapists.

Is that your stand on male victims of rape and sexual assault too? How about children?

NO, my point is that all are innocent until they are proven guilty.  That until the underlying social and cultural norms are changed none of this matters in regards to what one wants on an individual level.  Complaining about the after affects / effects does nothing to address nor change the underlying social and cultural norms that create the conditions and persceptions of rape victims and how they are seen in our social construct.

As long as the social atmosphere finds women / men or even children at fault or persumes them to be at faught then the institutions that society has in place will approach it from that perspective.  You can b**ch and moan all you want but it will do nothing to cause change until the social paradyn is challenged and changed and that is not happening on some message board.

That's something that has to be addressed almost at the grass roots level and conveyed in a manner that the thrust is aimed at the condition that allows for it to occur not in ones ability to be seen in a differing light.  That's what was done in the Civil Rights arena, the Women's right to vote arena, Women's sufferage, the list just goes on and on.

But you go right on speaking on the fall out and ignoring the conditions that create it or allow it and see just how fast nothing happens.
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« Reply #277: June 11, 2011, 05:30:53 pm »

NO, my point is that all are innocent until they are proven guilty.  That until the underlying social and cultural norms are changed none of this matters in regards to what one wants on an individual level.  Complaining about the after affects / effects does nothing to address nor change the underlying social and cultural norms that create the conditions and persceptions of rape victims and how they are seen in our social construct.

As long as the social atmosphere finds women / men or even children at fault or persumes them to be at faught then the institutions that society has in place will approach it from that perspective.  You can b**ch and moan all you want but it will do nothing to cause change until the social paradyn is challenged and changed and that is not happening on some message board.

That's something that has to be addressed almost at the grass roots level and conveyed in a manner that the thrust is aimed at the condition that allows for it to occur not in ones ability to be seen in a differing light.  That's what was done in the Civil Rights arena, the Women's right to vote arena, Women's sufferage, the list just goes on and on.

But you go right on speaking on the fall out and ignoring the conditions that create it or allow it and see just how fast nothing happens.

I don't know how the women's movement has managed for so long without you, sir.
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« Reply #278: June 11, 2011, 05:33:48 pm »

You can b**ch and moan all you want but it will do nothing to cause change until the social paradyn is challenged and changed and that is not happening on some message board.

That's something that has to be addressed almost at the grass roots level and conveyed in a manner that the thrust is aimed at the condition that allows for it to occur not in ones ability to be seen in a differing light.  That's what was done in the Civil Rights arena, the Women's right to vote arena, Women's sufferage, the list just goes on and on.

But you go right on speaking on the fall out and ignoring the conditions that create it or allow it and see just how fast nothing happens.

Uhm. What?

I for one have learned quite a bit from links etc on this particular thread. And for every person that has posted there are more reading and following along, perhaps re-evaluating their concept, perceptions, and attitudes toward rape survivor's and society's treatment of them, OUR treatment of them.

Message boards and their users DO NOT exist in a vacuum separate from the rest of society and reality. Just look at the impact of 4Chan on our culture for an example. This discussion? This debate? IS doing something.

Would it be better if we all wrote letters to our legislators, donated time or money to survivor support groups? Probably but is this better than doing nothing? Hell yes it is.
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« Reply #279: June 11, 2011, 05:37:40 pm »

I don't know how the women's movement has managed for so long without you, sir.

You know two can play that game I can equally ask or ponder how the feminist movement has managed to survive with women like you.  I have history on my side as to what as been required to cause social change and what has alse been resisted due to the manner in which it was presented or argued. 

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« Reply #280: June 11, 2011, 05:40:51 pm »

At a certain point my ability to play nice falls away into "oh my GOD you're so stupid! How do you remember to breathe?" which... really isn't conducive to making a point. >< So yeah, when I'm not online and can't just lurk, I usually stay away from heated things like that.

Me too. When I'm too angry to form a rational response, I'll take myself out of the situation. At least until I calm down.

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While I understand now that feminism is really, really diverse, my time at Bryn Mawr was riddled with individuals like the one I'd mentioned who were all GIRL POWER at the expense of men.

I've seen a lot of this too. I've always been really put off by the idea that if you're a feminist, you must hate men, or want to subjugate them in some way. That's not equality.
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« Reply #281: June 11, 2011, 05:59:15 pm »

Everyone,

*** MOD HAT ON ***The thread's getting a little heated (and given the subject that this thread has turned towards, it's entirely understandable).  If you find yourself getting too frustrated, please consider taking a break from the conversation to cool down--or even dropping the subject entirely, if necessary.  If one particular poster is getting on your nerves, you may also want to consider putting them on Ignore (provided they aren't staff).  We don't object to heated discussion here, of course, but at a certain point it becomes unproductive.  Please remember that we're here to discuss issues, not personalities.  If you can't do that--take a break.

Thanks.
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« Reply #282: June 11, 2011, 06:00:42 pm »


Not addressed to any singular person but the group as a whole.  I need to appologize for the anger and frustration being directed against the board.  At the moment it seem's my anger and frustration with my daughter-in-law is coming out in my responses here and other places as I struggle to avoid releasing it upon her.  For that I appologize.

To give you an idea to understand my wife and myself pretty much now raise of three grandchildren.  My son and his wife have had Social Services in our home a number of times now and she just keeps doing all the things that Child Services gets called in for but her mom tells her they're wrong, were wrong and that she is doing a great job even though she is not here to see what is actually going on.

So again I appologize for directing my frustration and agner against her at the collective you.
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« Reply #283: June 13, 2011, 08:50:20 am »

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The last three days of postings about rape


Whoa, whoa, whoa.  What on earth is going on here?  I’m away from the computer for three days, and this thread explodes into an oblique indictment of my belief system, based solely on an erroneous and misinformed simile made by mhorighan.  I’m not sure I can straighten this out in the currently heated and possibly environment, but I feel as though I must at least try.

First off, the original question was about Love Spells.  I have no idea what caused so many people to immediately assume “Love Spell = Getting Someone To Have Sex With You Spell”.  I sincerely hope that people realize Love is much, much more than mere sex.  If you think about it, Love is everything that goes on between two people when they aren’t screwing.  Love is the emotional glue that holds two (or more) people together when there isn’t a flood of pheromones bombarding the limbic system.  I find it a bit sad that so many people focused on the purely physical aspects of a relationship when talking about Love.

Secondly, I’m not sure I was directly called “evil”, but I must object to at least my tradition being called evil.  There appears to be a misunderstanding here: It seems as though our definitions differ, and people may be judging me according to their own definitions, rather than mine.  It may be that my initial posts were merely skimmed over, rather than subjected to a more critical analysis.  Case in point, the concept of “Will”.  I believe that one’s Will does exist, and moreover, cannot be changed by external forces.  It appears the difference arises when some people hold that a human always employs their will when expressing a particular behavior (at least, that is what I infer from their posts.  I cannot speak for them though, nor do I intend to).  In my tradition, this can’t possibly be right, because it cannot explain the easily observed, and constantly occurring occasions of Akrasia, Cognitive Dissonance, and Self-Destructive behavior.  It is my belief that the majority of behavior comes from learned, conditioned and imprinted structures that mask and occlude one’s true Will; and these behaviors were not chosen by the individual, but forced upon them.  You did not choose what language to speak, you did not choose your social conventions, you did not choose your place in the tribal hierarchy.  But it goes deeper than that, even.  Your favorite music, favorite food, favorite car to drive, favorite TV show, movie, video game – even if you think you were freely choosing, my tradition holds that you were merely presented with two equivalent options.  Sure, you’re free to choose!  Free to choose Coke or Pepsi, Ke$ha or Katy Perry, McDonald’s or Wendy’s, Target or Wal-Mart, Democrat or Republican.  I believe these are not choices!  These are conditioned behaviors, programmed into one’s brain as easily as HTML.  My beliefs are not unique, here – they are strongly tied into memetic theory (Cf. Dawkin’s The Selfish Gene for an introduction), although not nearly as gloomy, because my tradition teaches that a person can overcome their own programming, conditioning, and imprints.  The main conflict between my views and what seems to be the majority of people here appears to be that what I consider to be mechanical unthinking behavior that masks one’s true Will, they consider that to actually BE their Will.  But again, I believe if one’s Will leads to Akrasia, then that can’t possibly be one’s true Will.

Finally, and most importantly: If a person needs to use occult powers in order to get someone to have sex with them, they are totally doing it wrong.  It’s a biological imperative, y’all.  Most people want to have sex.  There’s no need to resort to magic to get it.  That’s just silly.
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« Reply #284: June 13, 2011, 09:30:42 am »



Whoa, whoa, whoa.  What on earth is going on here?  I’m away from the computer for three days, and this thread explodes into an oblique indictment of my belief system, based solely on an erroneous and misinformed simile made by mhorighan.  I’m not sure I can straighten this out in the currently heated and possibly environment, but I feel as though I must at least try.

First off, the original question was about Love Spells.  I have no idea what caused so many people to immediately assume “Love Spell = Getting Someone To Have Sex With You Spell”.  I sincerely hope that people realize Love is much, much more than mere sex.  If you think about it, Love is everything that goes on between two people when they aren’t screwing.  Love is the emotional glue that holds two (or more) people together when there isn’t a flood of pheromones bombarding the limbic system.  I find it a bit sad that so many people focused on the purely physical aspects of a relationship when talking about Love.

Secondly, I’m not sure I was directly called “evil”, but I must object to at least my tradition being called evil.  There appears to be a misunderstanding here: It seems as though our definitions differ, and people may be judging me according to their own definitions, rather than mine.  It may be that my initial posts were merely skimmed over, rather than subjected to a more critical analysis.  Case in point, the concept of “Will”.  I believe that one’s Will does exist, and moreover, cannot be changed by external forces.  It appears the difference arises when some people hold that a human always employs their will when expressing a particular behavior (at least, that is what I infer from their posts.  I cannot speak for them though, nor do I intend to).  In my tradition, this can’t possibly be right, because it cannot explain the easily observed, and constantly occurring occasions of Akrasia, Cognitive Dissonance, and Self-Destructive behavior.  It is my belief that the majority of behavior comes from learned, conditioned and imprinted structures that mask and occlude one’s true Will; and these behaviors were not chosen by the individual, but forced upon them.  You did not choose what language to speak, you did not choose your social conventions, you did not choose your place in the tribal hierarchy.  But it goes deeper than that, even.  Your favorite music, favorite food, favorite car to drive, favorite TV show, movie, video game – even if you think you were freely choosing, my tradition holds that you were merely presented with two equivalent options.  Sure, you’re free to choose!  Free to choose Coke or Pepsi, Ke$ha or Katy Perry, McDonald’s or Wendy’s, Target or Wal-Mart, Democrat or Republican.  I believe these are not choices!  These are conditioned behaviors, programmed into one’s brain as easily as HTML.  My beliefs are not unique, here – they are strongly tied into memetic theory (Cf. Dawkin’s The Selfish Gene for an introduction), although not nearly as gloomy, because my tradition teaches that a person can overcome their own programming, conditioning, and imprints.  The main conflict between my views and what seems to be the majority of people here appears to be that what I consider to be mechanical unthinking behavior that masks one’s true Will, they consider that to actually BE their Will.  But again, I believe if one’s Will leads to Akrasia, then that can’t possibly be one’s true Will.

Finally, and most importantly: If a person needs to use occult powers in order to get someone to have sex with them, they are totally doing it wrong.  It’s a biological imperative, y’all.  Most people want to have sex.  There’s no need to resort to magic to get it.  That’s just silly.


“Against their Will”?  What is “Will”?  In my tradition, it’s made clear that the average person walking around has no idea what “Will” actually means.  My beliefs stress that normal people are little more than an amalgamation of accreted mechanical habits and conditioning, most installed without the person’s knowledge or consent.  I say “mechanical” because they tend to behave as simple input >> output functions, and operate below the level of consciousness.  In my tradition, consistent tantric practices to raise kundalini orgone energy through ritualized intercourse are believed to short-circuit or destroy these mechanisms, allowing the person to reform or re-establish the functions as they see fit.  I believe that only through this process can one gain what is commonly referred to as “Free Will”.  So the question arises: What if one channels their orgone in a manner that subtly but distinctly changes the probability waves in the brain of a person that does not currently have free will?  In essence, all you’re doing is flipping the switches of their pre-programmed mechanisms.  You’re not forcing them to do things against their will, because they don’t have any.  It seems to me to be no different than using a particularly effective argument to convince someone less clever than you to do what you want them to.  I know that in order to get through the work week, I continually have to convince, cajole, and corner my co-workers to get them to behave the way I want them to – and I must say that I’m fairly good at it.  The use of directed orgone to shape mechanical behavior doesn’t seem that different to me.   

So of course, you can’t make a person act against their Will… But since most people’s Wills are buried six feet under a lifetime of programming, that doesn’t seem to be an issue for me.

Quoted both of those so people don't have to go back and dig it up...

To me it sounds like in your belief system people have a will, but it's so buried beneath programming that you feel that using your directed orgone energy to alter a persons programming so they do what you want them to do is an acceptable practice, and is not really forcing them to do anything they don't want to do because they don't really want to do anything, they're just following their programming.

So every bit of behaviour that anyone every does in any way shape or form is mechanical, unless they get onto your path. And the way to get on your path is to deprogram yourself by having ritual sex?

You're like Tom Cruise talking about Scientology.
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