The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
May 12, 2021, 09:39:13 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 12, 2021, 09:39:13 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Joseph Campbell & Heathen Mythology  (Read 9872 times)
Mark C.
Journeyman
***
Last Login:July 04, 2011, 12:03:15 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Heathen of as yet undefined specificity :-)
Posts: 136

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #15: June 20, 2011, 10:38:15 am »

Which is why I suppose some aspects of it sit wrong with me? It can come across as though gods or religion are an answer to a human condition, formed from the human experience and psyche, rather than as real and individual gods interacting with Man.

I agree it can come across that way, and that’s an attraction for me. I see the gods as real and outside us, but with our perception of them coming from within and being shaped by the human psyche.

I guess it comes down to my thinking that there are actually two types of “god”. Firstly, we have the entity / divinity itself whose nature is beyond human comprehension. Secondly, we have the images we use to relate to the god’s true nature in the best way we can.

Is Thor real? Absolutely! Is he a red-bearded muscular manlike being with a big hammer who rides a goat drawn cart whenever there is a thunderstorm? I think not.

The real Thor was not created by humans, but the image / mythology we use relate to that divinity is a human creation; coloured by the human condition and the human experience. How could it not be? As humans we perceive everything though human senses and we make sense of it with human intellect and with human emotions.

As I look out the widow as I type this I can see a blue sky with white clouds. “Blue” does not exist in the sky though. The light wave is of a certain frequency that when it enters my eyes it triggers a nerve impulse that my brain creates “blue” from and then “projects” it outside of me. Colour does not exist outside the human mind. Likewise, the image of the sky I have was also created inside the human mind.

The image I see of the sky is created in me; although it appears “out there”. However, it is the nature of the sky above me that leads to the image of the sky within me. I think it’s exactly the same with the gods.

If I were to see the created image of the gods as being the gods I feel would be short changing them. They are far more than the image we humans can create for them.

I also like that it is not the intellect that created the images of the gods, but the subconscious of many people over a long time. That speaks to the truth of what the images point to I feel. Our ancestors all felt the truth of those images and knew that they helped us connects to what gave rise to those images.

The gods are outside of us, but the images we have of them are created by the human mind. In exactly the same way everything we perceive is.

Which came first--man or god? I go back and forth on this myself... I can't wrap my head around a god creating humans specifically. I guess because I just have to ask... why bother? But questions like that don't seem to come to satisfactory answers; I don't think there's any way to know. So I just "believe," instead of thinking too hard about the origins of the gods and hurting my brain. Tongue

I think that the entities we now perceive as “gods” existed long before we were around to perceive them. Those forces created the universe, the laws of physics, the planets, and ultimately life. Human beings evolved as a result of the “guidance” of those divine forces (which I think Rigsthula is a metaphor for) and then we created images to help us understand and connect with the forces that “created us”.

Different cultures used different images, and it is the Heathen images that most effectively resonate with me. The “gods” created man, but man created his anthropomorphised images of the gods. Before man existed, no one perceived as Thor as a man wielding a hammer, but if it were not for the force that protects the earth and keeps it able to support life (the “real Thor”) there would have been no people to create an image of him.

The order as I see it would therefore be: gods … then man … then man’s images of the gods.

Mark.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 11:07:11 am by Mark C. » Logged

”But when [religion] gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble” - Joseph Campbell

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Hyacinth Belle
Moderator
Adept Member
***
*
Last Login:December 03, 2011, 01:02:54 pm
United States United States

Religion: Heathen/Taoist
TCN ID: Hyacinth_Belle
Posts: 1217


Making my sun run...

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #16: June 20, 2011, 06:04:01 pm »

Love love love this post. This describes what I feel of the divine in a large way... speaks to my Taoist / panentheist side. Wink

What you've said doesn't really address if gods created man, however. Or why the gods seem to have taken an interest in us in particular.
Logged

"She who stands on tiptoe / doesn't stand firm. / She who rushes ahead / doesn't go far. / She who tries to shine / dims her own light. / She who defines herself / can't know who she really is. / She who has power over others / can't empower herself. / She who clings to her work / will create nothing that endures. / If you want to accord with the Tao, / just do your job, then let go." ~ Tao Te Ching, chp. 24

"Silent and thoughtful a prince's son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15
Juniperberry
Master Member
****
Last Login:July 05, 2011, 02:16:19 pm
United States United States

Religion: Heathen
Posts: 312


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #17: June 20, 2011, 07:19:55 pm »

Love love love this post. This describes what I feel of the divine in a large way... speaks to my Taoist / panentheist side. Wink

What you've said doesn't really address if gods created man, however. Or why the gods seem to have taken an interest in us in particular.


Good post, Mark. Smiley

I think Mark sort of touched on this, or I'm reading my own opinion into it, but it's my idea that man evolved like every other creature and plant that arose out of Ymir. I don't believe the gods had a plan to create man which is a bit supported by the lore in which the three brothers came across the driftwood. Tree is often a kenning for Man; a tree of the Valkyrie means a warrior. Driftwood implies, to me at least, that the gods came upon lost man. Man that didn't yet have the human spirit, intelligence and experience (before homosapien?). In my own personal opinion, I like to imagine that the gods were sort of...experimenting. Experimenting with their own power and capabilities and influence and they were like reckless kids in 'making' us. Now that they have 'fathered' us, they're responsible for us and in turn we assist them, either at ragnarok, or in dealings with favored tribes, etc.

I may have talked about this before but this is how I explain, to my own satisfaction, the ancestry of heathenry vs race. I don't think the gods gave the human experience to the first man and were the only to do so,  but rather that they found a few wandering and touched them, as gods of other pantheons touched others. They are the ancestors of our human spirit, not of our blood, so any man, despite race or nationality, is heathen if he has that heathen spirit passed down. (These are my heathen beliefs. They may not match up with the actual mythology of another religion).  
Logged
Juniperberry
Master Member
****
Last Login:July 05, 2011, 02:16:19 pm
United States United States

Religion: Heathen
Posts: 312


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #18: June 20, 2011, 07:26:02 pm »

I agree it can come across that way, and that’s an attraction for me. I see the gods as real and outside us, but with our perception of them coming from within and being shaped by the human psyche.

Is Thor real? Absolutely! Is he a red-bearded muscular manlike being with a big hammer who rides a goat drawn cart whenever there is a thunderstorm? I think not.

The real Thor was not created by humans, but the image / mythology we use relate to that divinity is a human creation; coloured by the human condition and the human experience. How could it not be? As humans we perceive everything though human senses and we make sense of it with human intellect and with human emotions.


I agree with this. Tacitus wrote that the germanics didn't see their gods as people: "The Germans, however, do not consider it consistent with the grandeur of celestial beings to confine the gods within walls, or to liken them to the form of any human countenance. They consecrate woods and groves, and they apply the names of deities to the abstraction which they see only in spiritual worship."

I wonder how much of the mythology that Snorri recorded was influenced by the Chrstian understanding that we were created in God's image?



 
Logged
Mark C.
Journeyman
***
Last Login:July 04, 2011, 12:03:15 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Heathen of as yet undefined specificity :-)
Posts: 136

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #19: June 21, 2011, 07:26:21 am »

 
I agree with this. Tacitus wrote that the germanics didn't see their gods as people: "The Germans, however, do not consider it consistent with the grandeur of celestial beings to confine the gods within walls, or to liken them to the form of any human countenance. They consecrate woods and groves, and they apply the names of deities to the abstraction which they see only in spiritual worship."

I wonder how much of the mythology that Snorri recorded was influenced by the Chrstian understanding that we were created in God's image?

I’d never tied up the Tacitus quote with that before! I like it! Exactly what is said is exactly what I think. I’d always considered my viewpoint as being a modern look at the mythology, but maybe it’s not as modern as I think?

As regards Snorri, that’s a very interesting idea! It could well be that his take on Christian mythology as being “gospel truth” coloured his view of heathen mythology? Maybe in the same way that many do today?

Mark
Logged

”But when [religion] gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble” - Joseph Campbell

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
St. Joseph for sale of home
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
Breeze 7 3878 Last post March 28, 2007, 03:53:46 pm
by Laura Stamps
Problem with the Joe Campbell Monomyth? « 1 2 3 4 »
Books and Other Resources
Widsith 47 27593 Last post November 13, 2007, 07:27:12 pm
by Starglade
Bury St. Joseph
Religious News
LyricFox 7 2342 Last post October 31, 2007, 01:53:20 pm
by Kasmira
What's in a name: Heathen? Asatru? « 1 2 »
Asatru and Heathenry SIG
Hyacinth Belle 24 13965 Last post April 16, 2011, 11:43:38 pm
by Ecgwine
Am I Heathen?
Asatru and Heathenry SIG
Mark C. 8 2685 Last post August 07, 2010, 05:43:01 am
by Mark C.
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.07 seconds with 41 queries.