Friends, Lovers, Spouses, and Other Relationships with Deities

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[Lokabrenna]

Hi everyone,

There's a discussion going on right now regarding spirit wives/husbands here: http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=16747.0 but this topic is more about relationships with deities specifically, and perhaps more...unconventional...relationships.

Simply put, I've been posting elsewhere (I won't say where) and I've come across at least one person who seems to believe that because they are "married" to a certain goddess it makes them an expert on that goddess, and I was wondering what Cauldronites thought about deity marriage in general. My impression is not that it's "better" per se than someone who say, sees a deity as a friend, as part of a parent/child dynamic, or even Master/slave or some variation of a D/s relationship (itself a controversial subject) though it does require a lot of work, but sometimes it seems as if some people use such a relationship to put others down.

Keeping all that I've just said in mind, I have a few questions:

1. Obviously, individual deities will have their preferences, but are certain pantheons in general more accepting of certain forms of relationships? I know in Heathenry there's more of a tendency to think of gods as friends or extended family. Whereas Sumerian deities specifically created humans to serve as a labour force, so maybe there's more of an undertone of "service".

2. This is sort of a corollary to my first conundrum, but what if the deity in question already has a spouse? If someone were to go around claiming to be married to Zeus, for instance, I'd tell them to watch out for Hera! My understanding is that the relationships that deities have with each other are fundamentally different from a relationship a deity has with a human, and I suppose some deities would be more open to the idea of pursuing that sort of relationship with humans than others. Maybe I just answered my own question. 

3. For those of you who aren't in this sort of relationship, what would you do if your deity (or a deity you are particularly close to) started dropping hints that they wanted to be lovers, or spouses, or some other form of intense relationship? I personally think my response would be something along the lines of "Why? Aren't we great as friends? You're already a part of my family!" I'm kind of commitment phobic though, so I don't see that sort of relationship working for me in the long term.

Anyways, I'm just looking for opinions in general. What's your take on more intimate relationships with gods and goddesses?

[Darkhawk]

Anyways, I'm just looking for opinions in general. What's your take on more intimate relationships with gods and goddesses?

Deity-as-lover is an ancient and thoroughly attested form of mysticism, found all around the world.

Consider the Sufi poet Rabi'a Al-'Adawiyya:

O my Lord,
the stars glitter
and the eyes of men are closed.
Kings have locked their doors
and each lover is alone with his love.

Here, I am alone with you.

I think it was Jenett that mentioned to me once that a class she was taking got sidetracked into a long discussion of medieval-era nuns who recorded erotic experiences with Jesus.

I don't see a grand difference between that and pagans who operate in a deity-as-lover paradigm, whether more or less committed.  Erotic impulses can be very powerful, and can be the vehicle for intense mystical and spiritual experiences.  This is ordinary, to me.

[Tahpenes]

What's your take on more intimate relationships with gods and goddesses?

I don't think it would be easy for me to ascribe the limits/classifications my society places on human relationships to a relationship with a divine being. So, I wouldn't feel haven't felt weird about there being an erotic component to my relationships with a god/dess, but "marriage" is a different matter entirely which just wouldn't make sense with how I interact with them.

[Waterfall]

Anyways, I'm just looking for opinions in general. What's your take on more intimate relationships with gods and goddesses?

When I first heard of marrying a deity, I thought the idea was just completely insane, but I was looking at it from a more human perspective of marriage. But from what I gather, it's different than a human-human marriage. I don't entirely understand it but I'm okay with that. I think it's one of those things that I simply won't understand.

3. For those of you who aren't in this sort of relationship, what would you do if your deity (or a deity you are particularly close to) started dropping hints that they wanted to be lovers, or spouses, or some other form of intense relationship? I personally think my response would be something along the lines of "Why? Aren't we great as friends? You're already a part of my family!" I'm kind of commitment phobic though, so I don't see that sort of relationship working for me in the long term.

I think I'd laugh. I would assume he was joking. Because despite the fact that there's quite a few people on the Internet that say they're married to Loki, the entire idea of marrying him just strikes me as ridiculous. If he were serious (and it would take me a long time to figure that out - not too smart about these things) I'd probably ask why as well. I don't see what's wrong with the relationship we have now. And even if he gave me a reason why, I'd probably say no. Because I can't see me wanting something like that.

[SeaShine]

Simply put, I've been posting elsewhere (I won't say where) and I've come across at least one person who seems to believe that because they are "married" to a certain goddess it makes them an expert on that goddess, and I was wondering what Cauldronites thought about deity marriage in general. My impression is not that it's "better" per se than someone who say, sees a deity as a friend, as part of a parent/child dynamic, or even Master/slave or some variation of a D/s relationship (itself a controversial subject) though it does require a lot of work, but sometimes it seems as if some people use such a relationship to put others down.

One's personal relationship with deity is just that -- personal.  So if someone told me they were married to one of my gods, I wouldn't care.  But I certainly wouldn't hold them in higher regard, or view them as more of an expert on my god's nature than I am.  In fact, I'd doubt their true intentions behind making such a special relationship publicly known.  I'd wonder if they were seeking attention.




 

[Waldfrau]

Simply put, I've been posting elsewhere (I won't say where) and I've come across at least one person who seems to believe that because they are "married" to a certain goddess it makes them an expert on that goddess, and I was wondering what Cauldronites thought about deity marriage in general. My impression is not that it's "better" per se than someone who say, sees a deity as a friend, as part of a parent/child dynamic, or even Master/slave or some variation of a D/s relationship (itself a controversial subject) though it does require a lot of work, but sometimes it seems as if some people use such a relationship to put others down.

I think it's difficult to compare relationships with deities of several people with each other. For me 'marriage' in this context sound more like a aproximation to how the relationship is and what it means than 'marriage' in the 'mundane' sense.

I think it's hard to put a relationship with a deity into words and some people just have their reasons to use 'marriage' as a descriptor while others prefer 'extended family'. Maybe not everyone who uses the same descriptor has the same reasons for them, it might be interesting to look into those reasons to see what the relationship is without the 'label'.

On the expert thing I think every person's relationship to a deity is different and they may relate differently to different aspects of the deity. I don't think one can automaticly conclude somebody who sees themselves 'married' to a deity is an expert of the deity in all aspects. Someone who has just a passing interest could have maybe read a piece of myth and understood it in a way another person who has dealt with this deity more thoroughly just never had because of a personal blind spot, you never know. It's a bit like a soccer buddy might know some things about his friend the wife doesn't.

[veggiewolf]

...
I don't see a grand difference between that and pagans who operate in a deity-as-lover paradigm, whether more or less committed.  Erotic impulses can be very powerful, and can be the vehicle for intense mystical and spiritual experiences.  This is ordinary, to me.

This.

[Nehet]

I don't see a grand difference between that and pagans who operate in a deity-as-lover paradigm, whether more or less committed.  Erotic impulses can be very powerful, and can be the vehicle for intense mystical and spiritual experiences.  This is ordinary, to me.

OK, this brings back a memory of a thread from a couple of months back:

"Intimacy -what is "too much?"

I'm sort of thinking about the whole thing in a different context than I was back then.  Sexual impulses are a healthy, normal response to feelings of emotional connection.  Devotees and mystics often feel a strong emotional bond with their God(s).  Such people have bodies that might translate those feelings into sexual connection.  That's what (most) humans do, when passion shows up.  Most Gods are described as being very attractive in hymns and mythology.  They tend to show up looking pretty when people "see" them during meditation or prayer.   

It makes sense that sexual impulses would be a  "normal" side effect of divine connection.  If that's the case, then I'd suspect it's not unusual for people to...erhm...act on them. 

I'm not sure how else one would deal with those sorts of feelings, unless they just want to make themselves very frustrated. 

I feel this would be completely inappropriate in a formal ritual, at least on my path.  Still, having some "happy alone time" outside of ritual seems at least understandable. 

I've read some Sufi poetry but I guess my silly brain never thought to interpret God-as-lover literally.  That may be because it would have been considered horribly blasphemous and shameful in my birth religion.  It's hard for me to get away from that programming. 

[SatAset]

Deity-as-lover is an ancient and thoroughly attested form of mysticism, found all around the world.

I don't see a grand difference between that and pagans who operate in a deity-as-lover paradigm, whether more or less committed.  Erotic impulses can be very powerful, and can be the vehicle for intense mystical and spiritual experiences.  This is ordinary, to me.

I'd say that gods can be erotic too or be associated with eroticism, sexuality etc.  Some gods' powers manifest within that framework like Set being a deity of male sexuality.  This is making me think of Hethert's epithet "Lady of the Vulva". 

[Nyktipolos]

I'd say that gods can be erotic too or be associated with eroticism, sexuality etc.  Some gods' powers manifest within that framework like Set being a deity of male sexuality.  This is making me think of Hethert's epithet "Lady of the Vulva". 

Have to agree with this. I would also include Aphrodite in this list as well. Homer gives her a couple of epithets similar to Hethert's, like Philommêdês, "Genital-Loving". Also included is Pothôn Mêtêr, "Mother of Desire".

[Miss Kitten]

Hi everyone,

There's a discussion going on right now regarding spirit wives/husbands here: http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=16747.0 but this topic is more about relationships with deities specifically, and perhaps more...unconventional...relationships.

Simply put, I've been posting elsewhere (I won't say where) and I've come across at least one person who seems to believe that because they are "married" to a certain goddess it makes them an expert on that goddess, and I was wondering what Cauldronites thought about deity marriage in general. My impression is not that it's "better" per se than someone who say, sees a deity as a friend, as part of a parent/child dynamic, or even Master/slave or some variation of a D/s relationship (itself a controversial subject) though it does require a lot of work, but sometimes it seems as if some people use such a relationship to put others down.

Keeping all that I've just said in mind, I have a few questions:

1. Obviously, individual deities will have their preferences, but are certain pantheons in general more accepting of certain forms of relationships? I know in Heathenry there's more of a tendency to think of gods as friends or extended family. Whereas Sumerian deities specifically created humans to serve as a labour force, so maybe there's more of an undertone of "service".

2. This is sort of a corollary to my first conundrum, but what if the deity in question already has a spouse? If someone were to go around claiming to be married to Zeus, for instance, I'd tell them to watch out for Hera! My understanding is that the relationships that deities have with each other are fundamentally different from a relationship a deity has with a human, and I suppose some deities would be more open to the idea of pursuing that sort of relationship with humans than others. Maybe I just answered my own question. 

3. For those of you who aren't in this sort of relationship, what would you do if your deity (or a deity you are particularly close to) started dropping hints that they wanted to be lovers, or spouses, or some other form of intense relationship? I personally think my response would be something along the lines of "Why? Aren't we great as friends? You're already a part of my family!" I'm kind of commitment phobic though, so I don't see that sort of relationship working for me in the long term.

Anyways, I'm just looking for opinions in general. What's your take on more intimate relationships with gods and goddesses?

Some of the priestesses in Egyptian temples were referred to as the god's wife, so I wouldn't think it impossible for someone to have that kind of relationship today.  Although I ultimately have no right to judge what someone says of his or her relationship to a god, I admit that I would be suspicious of that person's mental state.

To answer#3, if Sutekh told me he wanted to a lover, I'd think he's joking, especially since he can sometimes say strange or sexual things to get a laugh out my reaction.

[SatAset]

Some of the priestesses in Egyptian temples were referred to as the god's wife, so I wouldn't think it impossible for someone to have that kind of relationship today.  Although I ultimately have no right to judge what someone says of his or her relationship to a god, I admit that I would be suspicious of that person's mental state.

To answer#3, if Sutekh told me he wanted to a lover, I'd think he's joking, especially since he can sometimes say strange or sexual things to get a laugh out my reaction.

God's Wives were married to human men in the New Kingdom, I believe.  In the Late Period they were chaste.  Just FYI. 

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