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Author Topic: Pagan vs US ethics / morals / etc  (Read 7878 times)
sailor_tech
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« Topic Start: June 30, 2007, 07:43:53 am »

On a fairly regular basis I see topics about how some activity is being done in a pagan way. I tend to look askance at most replies.  So, how about I turn it around.

What ethical, political, moral or similar stances come from your religious beliefs that are different from both mainstream US (or your country) or significant non-religious sub-culture? 

For example;

There are significant numbers of pagans who are vegitarians. There are also significant number of vegitarians in the US, most of whom are not pagan. Hence, being a pagan vegitarian isn't different from a significant non-religious sub-culture.

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« Reply #1: June 30, 2007, 08:35:34 am »

What ethical, political, moral or similar stances come from your religious beliefs that are different from both mainstream US (or your country) or significant non-religious sub-culture?

I don't think I even know what "mainstream US" culture is. The country is too large and has too much of a mix of different cultures to have a overarching culture. I know what I considered mainstream culture in San Antonio would not be in Waco where I now am -- and that less than 200 miles apart.

The only thing nI can think of where I strongly differ from majority culture based on my religious belief is that I am not some variety of Christian religiously or socially -- Christianity is one of the few things that really is mainstream US culture.
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« Reply #2: June 30, 2007, 10:19:25 am »

I don't think I even know what "mainstream US" culture is. The country is too large and has too much of a mix of different cultures to have a overarching culture. I know what I considered mainstream culture in San Antonio would not be in Waco where I now am -- and that less than 200 miles apart.

The only thing nI can think of where I strongly differ from majority culture based on my religious belief is that I am not some variety of Christian religiously or socially -- Christianity is one of the few things that really is mainstream US culture.

Well, that's sort of why I said "or significant non-religious sub-culture".  That covers the variety of political groupings in the US (or other country for our non-US members).
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« Reply #3: June 30, 2007, 12:34:48 pm »

What ethical, political, moral or similar stances come from your religious beliefs that are different from both mainstream US (or your country) or significant non-religious sub-culture?

On one level, this question is inapplicable: pretty much all of such stances of mine predate my conversion (or even encountering) my religions.  At the same time, though, my comfort with my faiths is strongly rooted in a sense that I can support those beliefs from a position of theology as well as from various other, more generalisable axiomsets.

My big Kemetic one is that I am far, far more of a socialist than is mainstream in the US.  (I'm, as far as I can tell from a distance, middle of the road for Europe, which makes me a raving pinko commie here.)  There is, from the First Intermediate Period on, a great deal of Egyptian narrative about the nature of legitimate power, and it is full of various nomarchs on up saying things like: "You can tell I am a legitimate ruler because I have made sure that the people are fed in times of famine, I have protected from crime and raiders, I have taken care of widows and children, I have sponsored artisans."  Thus, holding political power needs to be justified; appropriate justification is framed in terms of 'how well I have taken care of my constituents'.

I tend towards evaluating the value of social structures by the question "What are the minimum standards we have for treating each other?", which I consider one way of formulating social ma'at, the establishment and maintenance of acceptable minimum standards.  When I combine that ethic with the justification of power, I come away with "A good government works to maintain certain minimum standards of living for the population".


My big Feri one is that I consider the criminalisation of those things called "consensual crimes" not merely stupid, but actively evil.  The culture I'm steeped in not only treats these things as legitimately forbiddable, but actively works to teach only irresponsible ways of dealing with them.  (For example, both sexuality and drug use are taught in terms of "Just say 'No' and you'll be fine."  This provides no mechanism to learn how to be safe and responsible when one wants to say 'yes', which most people do eventually do with regards to sexuality.)  I mean, it was only recently that gay folks in all parts of the US had any reasonable confidence that they could not be imprisoned for having consensual sex with their partners -- Lawrence was decided in 2003.  And I've heard, though mostly anecdotally, of cases of people breaking a diabetic's needles because of "Just say no".
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« Reply #4: June 30, 2007, 12:48:57 pm »

On one level, this question is inapplicable: pretty much all of such stances of mine predate my conversion (or even encountering) my religions.  At the same time, though, my comfort with my faiths is strongly rooted in a sense that I can support those beliefs from a position of theology as well as from various other, more generalisable axiomsets.

My big Kemetic one is that I am far, far more of a socialist than is mainstream in the US.  (I'm, as far as I can tell from a distance, middle of the road for Europe, which makes me a raving pinko commie here.)  There is, from the First Intermediate Period on, a great deal of Egyptian narrative about the nature of legitimate power, and it is full of various nomarchs on up saying things like: "You can tell I am a legitimate ruler because I have made sure that the people are fed in times of famine, I have protected from crime and raiders, I have taken care of widows and children, I have sponsored artisans."  Thus, holding political power needs to be justified; appropriate justification is framed in terms of 'how well I have taken care of my constituents'.

I tend towards evaluating the value of social structures by the question "What are the minimum standards we have for treating each other?", which I consider one way of formulating social ma'at, the establishment and maintenance of acceptable minimum standards.  When I combine that ethic with the justification of power, I come away with "A good government works to maintain certain minimum standards of living for the population".


My big Feri one is that I consider the criminalisation of those things called "consensual crimes" not merely stupid, but actively evil.  The culture I'm steeped in not only treats these things as legitimately forbiddable, but actively works to teach only irresponsible ways of dealing with them.  (For example, both sexuality and drug use are taught in terms of "Just say 'No' and you'll be fine."  This provides no mechanism to learn how to be safe and responsible when one wants to say 'yes', which most people do eventually do with regards to sexuality.)  I mean, it was only recently that gay folks in all parts of the US had any reasonable confidence that they could not be imprisoned for having consensual sex with their partners -- Lawrence was decided in 2003.  And I've heard, though mostly anecdotally, of cases of people breaking a diabetic's needles because of "Just say no".

Well, if you were teaching children in your religion, you'd be teaching that drug use is acceptable from a religious viewpoint, but it's illegal in the US? 

And if you were talking economics or similar from a Kemetic point of view you'd draw Socialist works to support your points and would have to oppose liberterian materials? Also, that Kemetics would, from a theological stance, mostly vote Socialist in order to follow their beliefs? Although I'd say the Democrats would meet your requirements of taking care of people, etc

Maybe I need some more specific examples to spark discussion?
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« Reply #5: June 30, 2007, 01:20:15 pm »

And if you were talking economics or similar from a Kemetic point of view you'd draw Socialist works to support your points and would have to oppose liberterian materials?

What a weird, incomprehensible question.

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Also, that Kemetics would, from a theological stance, mostly vote Socialist in order to follow their beliefs?

Not my damn business what other people do.  Certainly not my business to instruct other people in what they are obligated to do.

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Maybe I need some more specific examples to spark discussion?

I am afraid I can't make any more sense of your response than I can of "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."
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« Reply #6: June 30, 2007, 02:33:34 pm »

And if you were talking economics or similar from a Kemetic point of view you'd draw Socialist works to support your points and would have to oppose liberterian materials?

If I'm talking economics, I'm talking economics, and not religion. When drawing on texts, I'd draw on those texts that support my point. I might mostly agree with Socialist works, but I see little point in disagreeing with libertarian texts on principal, and in fact, would consider doing so to be against ma'at. If I'm talking Kemeticism, I'm drawing from Kemetic texts, and might mention that it coincides with certain economics ideas.

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Also, that Kemetics would, from a theological stance, mostly vote Socialist in order to follow their beliefs?

Kemeticism, at this point, is pretty much completely undogmatized. Another Kemetic might interpret texts totally different from the way Darkhawk does, or might base their ideas on texts from a different era or whatever and come to totally different conclusions. It's kind of hard to make general statements of what a Kemetic might do based on only that information.

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« Reply #7: June 30, 2007, 03:08:06 pm »

What a weird, incomprehensible question.

Not my damn business what other people do.  Certainly not my business to instruct other people in what they are obligated to do.

I am afraid I can't make any more sense of your response than I can of "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."

I guess I'd need to explain things better.

You were apparently saying in your first post that Kemitic theology when it's applied to the politics / morals / ethics of society is socialist. By extenstion it would be anti-libertarian since socialist and libertarian are generally opposite each other.  

OK, other options instead of politics and economics (or abortion or death penalty).
I'm going to have to think of one or more topics.
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« Reply #8: June 30, 2007, 04:27:12 pm »

On a fairly regular basis I see topics about how some activity is being done in a pagan way. I tend to look askance at most replies.  So, how about I turn it around.

What ethical, political, moral or similar stances come from your religious beliefs that are different from both mainstream US (or your country) or significant non-religious sub-culture? 

For example;

There are significant numbers of pagans who are vegitarians. There are also significant number of vegitarians in the US, most of whom are not pagan. Hence, being a pagan vegitarian isn't different from a significant non-religious sub-culture.



here's the problem with your question.  Almost every ethic I can think of is also held by some major non religious subculture.  So the question is pretty much meaningless.  In fact, I think that would hold true of any christian ethics as well, they are not just held by chrisitnas.
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« Reply #9: June 30, 2007, 04:45:15 pm »

You were apparently saying in your first post that Kemitic theology when it's applied to the politics / morals / ethics of society is socialist.

How on earth did you get that from me talking about my interpretations?  I am not Teh Autoritay on Kemetic theology, empowered to dictate to the world.

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By extenstion it would be anti-libertarian since socialist and libertarian are generally opposite each other.

I never said a thing about libertarianism or Libertarianism.  Complete red herring.
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« Reply #10: June 30, 2007, 04:56:56 pm »

How on earth did you get that from me talking about my interpretations?  I am not Teh Autoritay on Kemetic theology, empowered to dictate to the world.

I never said a thing about libertarianism or Libertarianism.  Complete red herring.

I never said it was the only Kemetic viewpoint. Just that it was yours from what you posted in your first post. 

Libertarianism was brought up as an opposite to socialism.
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« Reply #11: June 30, 2007, 06:03:40 pm »



Peter, I suspect that people aren't really sure what you want, so when they reply and you ask further questions, theyquestions you are asking are taking them by surprise as what they thought you asked originally apparently isn't what you thought you were asking -- if this makes any sense.
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« Reply #12: June 30, 2007, 06:15:21 pm »

Peter, I suspect that people aren't really sure what you want, so when they reply and you ask further questions, theyquestions you are asking are taking them by surprise as what they thought you asked originally apparently isn't what you thought you were asking -- if this makes any sense.

Very probably the case.

I'll try and work up something clearer this evening hopefully.

Peter
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« Reply #13: June 30, 2007, 07:50:48 pm »

Libertarianism was brought up as an opposite to socialism.
Yes, you did.  And it confuzzles me completely.  I perceive them as being on different axes.

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« Reply #14: June 30, 2007, 07:58:11 pm »

Libertarianism was brought up as an opposite to socialism.

Why are you putting a social-control idea against an economic idea?

They're not the same thing.
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