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Author Topic: Pagan vs US ethics / morals / etc  (Read 7399 times)
BGMarc
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« Reply #15: June 30, 2007, 08:39:15 pm »

I don't think I even know what "mainstream US" culture is.

Randall

As you know, I am from Australia and, as an outsider looking in through the narrow window of the popular media, the US comes across as brutally individualist, capitalist, militarist, expansionist, and very accepting of elites from where I'm standing.

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Darkhawk
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« Reply #16: June 30, 2007, 09:06:10 pm »

Libertarianism was brought up as an opposite to socialism.

If you like.  I think that's silly, and I don't see why it's sequitur ....
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« Reply #17: June 30, 2007, 09:35:01 pm »

As you know, I am from Australia and, as an outsider looking in through the narrow window of the popular media, the US comes across as brutally individualist, capitalist, militarist, expansionist, and very accepting of elites from where I'm standing.

Yeah, but the media is a horrible representation of any country's real culture.  Remember, a significant portion of the media's portrayal of Australia is Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee. Wink

People here are usually surprised to find out that I am not rich, do not live in an oversized penthouse in New York City, eat foods that cannot be obtained through a drive-through, etc.  And conversely, if you tried to figure out Korean culture from Korean TV, you'd think everyone was rich (this seems to be a recurring theme...) and lived in tastelessly overdecorated freestanding houses, where mother spends the whole day preparing an elaborate traditional meal for the family to eat together.  In fact, most Koreans are (relatively speaking) as well off as you or I, live in huge concrete apartment blocks, and are so busy with work and school that they're lucky to meet as a family twice a day.

The other point of Randall's post, about the size of the country and mix of cultures is very true.  I'm from Boston, and I got minor culture shocks visiting Michigan and the West Coast.  I had a roommate from Minnesota who was massively freaked out by the general reticence of New Englanders; she thought everyone disliked her.  Never mind all of the ethnic pockets you might run into.

If you're interested, the last time this topic came up someone linked to the American culture test, which I think is pretty good, though not perfect.  These's a link to an Australian version as well.  However, if you notice, most of the things on that test deal with practical cultural aspects (how do you buy your groceries?) than with attitudes or moral stances.  Those parts of American culture (maybe any culture) are really hard to pin down.
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RandallS
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« Reply #18: June 30, 2007, 11:00:46 pm »

As you know, I am from Australia and, as an outsider looking in through the narrow window of the popular media, the US comes across as brutally individualist, capitalist, militarist, expansionist, and very accepting of elites from where I'm standing.

A bit of that is somewhat true -- although only for the more vocal/wealthy segments of society, which of course are the media's target audience. The only one of those that probably is very generally true is individualist -- Americans on average are probably more individualistic than average.
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Randall
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BGMarc
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« Reply #19: June 30, 2007, 11:58:41 pm »

Yeah, but the media is a horrible representation of any country's real culture.  Remember, a significant portion of the media's portrayal of Australia is Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee. Wink

Beachglass

Points well taken. I realise that the media is a poor glass through which to view a geopolitical area at a distance. It fails to show the many cultures and sub-cultures within that area and the various localised patterns of interaction, detente and conflict. I suppose that I thought there may be value in looking at those qualities I raiwsed as they do seem to be to some extent justified. They  are not the whoole story by any means, but they are something on which to base an answer to the OP's questions.

Cheers, BGM
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Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

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« Reply #20: July 01, 2007, 12:16:20 am »

If you like.  I think that's silly, and I don't see why it's sequitur ....

Two different political-economic philosophies. One is for minimal to no state involvement in the economy vs significant involvement in how the economy works.

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RandallS
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« Reply #21: July 01, 2007, 08:37:48 am »

Two different political-economic philosophies. One is for minimal to no state involvement in the economy vs significant involvement in how the economy works.

I don't see libertarianism and socialism as even on the same axis. Socialism is an economic axis while libertarianism is on a government control over the individual axis. I realize that the Libertarian Party in the US takes an extreme "dog-eat-dog and the hell with the losers" capitalist position but that economic position is really a completely separate issue from the basic libertarian position that the government should give as much freedom as possible to the individual and stay the heck out of their bedroom, their church, their reading material, etc. It is possible to have a high degree of individual freedom without interference from the government in any economic system just as it is possible to have the opposite (a nanny government that regulates every aspect of a person's private life) in any economic system.
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Randall
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« Reply #22: July 01, 2007, 08:58:17 am »

I don't see libertarianism and socialism as even on the same axis. Socialism is an economic axis while libertarianism is on a government control over the individual axis. I realize that the Libertarian Party in the US takes an extreme "dog-eat-dog and the hell with the losers" capitalist position but that economic position is really a completely separate issue from the basic libertarian position that the government should give as much freedom as possible to the individual and stay the heck out of their bedroom, their church, their reading material, etc. It is possible to have a high degree of individual freedom without interference from the government in any economic system just as it is possible to have the opposite (a nanny government that regulates every aspect of a person's private life) in any economic system.

Fine. I disagree.

I still don't have any specific issues or examples.
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Darkhawk
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« Reply #23: July 01, 2007, 04:27:15 pm »

I don't see libertarianism and socialism as even on the same axis. Socialism is an economic axis while libertarianism is on a government control over the individual axis.

I honestly have a hard time figuring out *how* they can be put on the same axis.  To point at what I was talking about, I fail to see what people having access to health care has to do with not arresting people for their private sexual practices.
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RandallS
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« Reply #24: July 01, 2007, 05:54:39 pm »

I honestly have a hard time figuring out *how* they can be put on the same axis.

Same here, but since these things are in the eye of the beholder to some extent, I can at least accept that to Peter they somehow are.
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Randall
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« Reply #25: July 02, 2007, 07:59:37 pm »

Same here, but since these things are in the eye of the beholder to some extent, I can at least accept that to Peter they somehow are.

See new thread here.

http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=1803.0

I suspect it might get fairly long and started one in a more appropiate forum and with a more specific thread title.
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