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Author Topic: Socialism vs Libertarianism  (Read 5142 times)
sailor_tech
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« Topic Start: July 02, 2007, 07:58:33 pm »

This is a spin off from "Pagan vs US ethics / morals / etc" that's over in Philosophy.

The discussion drifted to definiations of socialism and of libertarianism.

http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=1752.15  see post #20 by me for a starting point.  There is the quote link back if you think more context would help.

To summarize I contended that the two philosophies were both economic oriented.  And that they are in many ways opposites of each other.

To expand that here, both have a significant economic ideas in them.

Libertarianism is for minimal involvement of the government in the economy. In context, national health care ala Canada, England, most the world is wrong under libertarian beliefs. 

links:
http://www.lp.org/yourturn/archives/000520.shtml
last paragraph:
Quote
It looks Libertarians are going to be fighting a major battle over the freedom to make our own healthcare financing decisions in the months ahead. Perhaps it's time we start coming up with some good speaking points and getting them out in the public eye.

Also Encylopedia Brittanica, page 7 of their article on libertarianism
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-234235/libertarianism

Libertarianism supports minimal government involvement, and that's both minimal economic involvement by the government, and minimal involvement in people's personal lives.

edit: to clarify that last paragraph is mine, not a quote from Brittanica
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 08:00:31 pm by sailor_tech » Logged

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« Reply #1: July 02, 2007, 09:01:52 pm »


Hmm, to me Socialism is a broad spectrum. I mean the Socialism most people think of now is very incompatible with Libertarianism. However, a true Marxist communist socialism, or at least how I have gathered from reading the Communist Manifesto (interpretations could be different for everyone here), it would very compatible with libertarianism, or at least after it was applied. When being applied it wouldn't be so compatible but after it was applied the government would have to step out. Unfortunately, no country has ever got beyond the applying stage where the government is all.
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« Reply #2: July 02, 2007, 10:38:53 pm »


Is this the place for me to come in and say that every hardcore Libertarian I've ever known is just this side of an Anarchist? *g*
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« Reply #3: July 02, 2007, 10:43:12 pm »

Is this the place for me to come in and say that every hardcore Libertarian I've ever known is just this side of an Anarchist? *g*

My opinion of the Libertarian Party in the USA will always be colored negatively by their behavior at there party's (small) Texas state convention in the late 1980s when we (a small SF/F convention) had the misfortune to share a hotel with them. I would not vote for a Libertarian Party candidate if the election was between the Libertarian candidate and Pol Pot.
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« Reply #4: July 02, 2007, 10:55:09 pm »

My opinion of the Libertarian Party in the USA will always be colored negatively by their behavior at there party's (small) Texas state convention in the late 1980s when we (a small SF/F convention) had the misfortune to share a hotel with them. I would not vote for a Libertarian Party candidate if the election was between the Libertarian candidate and Pol Pot.

I've never had that kind of experience, so my perception isn't colored by that. What I've seen (and this isn't meant as a negative, just what I've noticed) has been such an extreme hands off attitude, that it seems to border on a more anarchial attitude.

I know we've got some Libertarians on the board and I've really never seen that with them so much, so I have to wonder if there isn't some division that I'm not aware of.
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« Reply #5: July 02, 2007, 10:59:55 pm »

I know we've got some Libertarians on the board and I've really never seen that with them so much, so I have to wonder if there isn't some division that I'm not aware of.

I suspect there is a difference between someone with libertarian views and someone who is a strong supporter of the Libertarian Party. I suspect many of of libertarian members are in the first group.
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« Reply #6: July 02, 2007, 11:00:36 pm »

I suspect there is a difference between someone with libertarian views and someone who is a strong supporter of the Libertarian Party. I suspect many of of libertarian members are in the first group.

**nods**

That may be it.
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« Reply #7: July 03, 2007, 05:34:30 am »

My opinion of the Libertarian Party in the USA will always be colored negatively by their behavior at there party's (small) Texas state convention in the late 1980s when we (a small SF/F convention) had the misfortune to share a hotel with them. I would not vote for a Libertarian Party candidate if the election was between the Libertarian candidate and Pol Pot.

Can you elaborate on what happened?
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« Reply #8: July 03, 2007, 06:16:07 am »

Is this the place for me to come in and say that every hardcore Libertarian I've ever known is just this side of an Anarchist? *g*

Except the libertarians seem to have read more economics and have fewer piercings. *g*
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« Reply #9: July 03, 2007, 07:36:26 am »

Except the libertarians seem to have read more economics and have fewer piercings. *g*

LOL...well yeah. There is that.
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« Reply #10: July 03, 2007, 08:23:43 am »

Can you elaborate on what happened?

Snort. They were rude to everyone -- their candidates would make rude jokes about people in wheelchairs or with other obvious disabilities in front of them (and everyone else). We called on it they were just exercising their first amendment rights.  There were laws against smoking in elevators at the time which they ignored because they were "unconstitutional" in their own -- when their smoke was obviously causing someone major breathing problems they just laughed than said they should take the stairs if they did not want to be in a tiny room full of smoke.

They tried to get our SF convention and a Lodge convention being held the same weekend thrown out because it would give their party a bad name for the news media to see see people in costumes and lodge regalia at the hotel -- even through they were the last convention to book. They would threaten people in the halls.  All-in-all they behaved like a group of rude thugs in suits -- and their candidates were at the forefront of the bad, self-centered behavior.
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« Reply #11: July 03, 2007, 10:01:04 am »

Snort. They were rude to everyone -- their candidates would make rude jokes about people in wheelchairs or with other obvious disabilities in front of them (and everyone else). We called on it they were just exercising their first amendment rights.  There were laws against smoking in elevators at the time which they ignored because they were "unconstitutional" in their own -- when their smoke was obviously causing someone major breathing problems they just laughed than said they should take the stairs if they did not want to be in a tiny room full of smoke.

They tried to get our SF convention and a Lodge convention being held the same weekend thrown out because it would give their party a bad name for the news media to see see people in costumes and lodge regalia at the hotel -- even through they were the last convention to book. They would threaten people in the halls.  All-in-all they behaved like a group of rude thugs in suits -- and their candidates were at the forefront of the bad, self-centered behavior.

I'm sort of surprised that they didn't tell you to sue them for such invasions of personal rights like not having to put up with smoke.
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« Reply #12: July 03, 2007, 12:32:35 pm »

I suspect there is a difference between someone with libertarian views and someone who is a strong supporter of the Libertarian Party. I suspect many of of libertarian members are in the first group.

I think that's it. I have a lot of libertarian views, but I also have a lot of socialist views as well. I think they work about equally well in actual practice, which is to say, not very well at all.

I also agree with Churchill, who said, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

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« Reply #13: July 03, 2007, 02:01:34 pm »

I suspect there is a difference between someone with libertarian views and someone who is a strong supporter of the Libertarian Party. I suspect many of of libertarian members are in the first group.

Ehh. Sort of, not really.

Many social / political / economic philosophies have stances on a large number of issues.  In this case, libertarians want little to no government involvement in both personal life and economics.

Thing is, in my opinion, if a person wants limited government involvement in personal life, (ie gay equal rights) but significant involvement in the economy (ie socialized medicine) you are not a libertarian of any kind.  There is a philosophy that supports little to no government involvement in personal life but socialized medicine. That philosophy is progressivism.

Now this has relatively little to do with wether a person thinks the programs will work or not.
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« Reply #14: July 03, 2007, 05:35:16 pm »

I'm sort of surprised that they didn't tell you to sue them for such invasions of personal rights like not having to put up with smoke.

Actually, they suggested all sorts of crap like that while laughing and acting like jackasses. As far as I can tell, the Libertarian Party in the US is really in favor some some type of Darwinistic oligarchy where the "strongest" 1% get to stomp over everyone else and laugh at those they are stomping on all while claiming some type of moral high ground based on supposedly fighting to preserve individual liberties (but really only for those strong enough to personally protect those "rights" from those strongest/richer/etc. than them).
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