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Author Topic: Socialism vs Libertarianism  (Read 5180 times)
sailor_tech
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« Reply #15: July 03, 2007, 06:32:14 pm »

Actually, they suggested all sorts of crap like that while laughing and acting like jackasses. As far as I can tell, the Libertarian Party in the US is really in favor some some type of Darwinistic oligarchy where the "strongest" 1% get to stomp over everyone else and laugh at those they are stomping on all while claiming some type of moral high ground based on supposedly fighting to preserve individual liberties (but really only for those strong enough to personally protect those "rights" from those strongest/richer/etc. than them).

L. Neil Smith wrote "The Probability Broach" as an example society. Not a bad Sci Fi read, not heavy or directly preachy on political background.  Worth getting from the libary, but not worth enough for me to recommend buying since I'm not sure enough of your SF&F tastes.

You almost assuredly have read "Moon is a Harsh Mistress".  The Lunar Authority only billed for oxygen, and sold some utility services. The rest of the society falls into a libertarian example of a sort.
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #16: July 03, 2007, 06:34:41 pm »

I suspect there is a difference between someone with libertarian views and someone who is a strong supporter of the Libertarian Party. I suspect many of of libertarian members are in the first group.
I won't attempt to speak for any of the others (that wouldn't be very libertarian Grin), but that's absolutely true of me - in fact, the only time I ever capitalize the word when it's applied to me is as the name of my trad; I'm not any other sort of capital-L Libertarian.  For the most part, I find Libertarians either repellent or amusing.

Your "horror story", Randall, is an excellent example of what I mean; they would be highly amusing if they weren't such repellent - and damaging - jackasses.  I'm not at all surprised, however.  It's fairly typical of Libertarians, not because it's inherent to L/libertarianism, but because the party milieu (like almost any small ideology-based group) provides mutual affirmation for their "f*ck you, Jack, I got mine" self-centredness.  Better-mannered folks who hold libertarian views are, well, repelled, so they've succeeded in insulating themselves from those who'll tell them, "You're not a libertarian, you're a common, garden-variety jerk."

As far as I'm concerned, at the core of the principle of individual liberty is mutual respect.  Those who do not practice this mutual respect are in no sense proponents of individual liberty as a principle; they are merely older, larger playground bullies, concerned not with principles (except as a tool with which to claim high moral ground) but with their own gratification.

I could make a very long post describing exactly what my ideologies are and why I consider "libertarian" to be an apt description.  But I kind of resent the idea - it's a bit too much like providing that lengthy and detailed an apologetic to defend whether I'm feminist enough or Pagan enough (I'm sufficiently unlike the high-profile, stereotypical variety of either of those, as well, that it often comes up).

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« Reply #17: July 03, 2007, 06:38:28 pm »

You almost assuredly have read "Moon is a Harsh Mistress".  The Lunar Authority only billed for oxygen, and sold some utility services. The rest of the society falls into a libertarian example of a sort.
<enjoying the thought of stuffing pseudolibertarian jerks out the airlock>

Sunflower
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Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
I do so have a life.  I just live part of it online.
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others
to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
My blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough", at Dreamwidth and LJ
sailor_tech
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« Reply #18: July 03, 2007, 06:56:48 pm »

<enjoying the thought of stuffing pseudolibertarian jerks out the airlock>

Sunflower

yeah. Based upon what Randall described, I don't see those libertarian party members surviving very long in an actual libertarian society. Either shot or sued.
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RandallS
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« Reply #19: July 03, 2007, 10:57:33 pm »

L. Neil Smith wrote "The Probability Broach" as an example society.... You almost assuredly have read "Moon is a Harsh Mistress".

I've read both. Like communism, these forms of society seem to work much better in fiction than in real life. In real life, these forms of society get hijacked by thugs -- just as the Libertarian Party in the US has been.
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sefiru
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« Reply #20: July 04, 2007, 02:55:51 am »

You almost assuredly have read "Moon is a Harsh Mistress".  The Lunar Authority only billed for oxygen, and sold some utility services. The rest of the society falls into a libertarian example of a sort.

I particularly like the scene where the main character, selected as a judge in a dispute, hires a jury from a nearby bar using his pocket change.

I think Libertarianism is one of those things that sounds like it would work fine, as long as everyone involved is pure of heart.  Tongue

This is an opinion piece on libertarianism that I largely agree with. Warning: Liberal viewpoint, short on references, no claim to being objective. ::hands out salt shakers::
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loneash
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« Reply #21: July 05, 2007, 08:51:48 pm »

However, a true Marxist communist socialism, or at least how I have gathered from reading the Communist Manifesto (interpretations could be different for everyone here), it would very compatible with libertarianism, or at least after it was applied. .

The problem often is that when read the Communist Manifesto is often assumed to be what existing/previous politicalenities (governments) were/are.

As far as I know no nation has ever had a true communistic form of government.  Certainly not the USSR of Red China.  Both of those were basically a dictatorial oligarchy.  And the small scale communistic groups have always fallen apart or modified their system.

On the other hand the Libatarian concept carried to an extreme, complete freedom of economics and behavior becomes dog eat dog.  Not conducive stability.

So any system needs to be between the extremes.  Take your pick, favor the individual or favor the no-living corporation.
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