Craft names vs legal names

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[Pam]

If a person presents as their craft name, is it rude to ask their legal name? Not so much on a forum, but in person. I was introduced to someone whose name is almost certainly craft but might be legal. Why I am nosey to know this I'm not sure, but I am. Maybe just so I can look them up in the phonebook or something. Or know how to introduce them to others. So would it be rude to ask?

If the name is ambiguous (like, say, non-obvious Tribal names) is it rude to ask if it is legal or craft? On the other hand, if you know someone's legal name and know they are Wiccan, is it rude to ask their craft name? Do many people make their craft name their legal name?

This is no doubt a stupid question (or series of questions) but I'd like to know anyway. I am meeting other pagans in person for the first time and I don't want to be a total klutz.

[Juni]

This is no doubt a stupid question (or series of questions) but I'd like to know anyway. I am meeting other pagans in person for the first time and I don't want to be a total klutz.

I don't think this is a stupid question at all- it's a very tricky matter of etiquette.

The only one I'm comfortable answering, really, is that asking someone who is Wiccan what their craft name would be, imo, rude. If they want to offer it, I imagine they will. I wouldn't feel comfortable on any of your other situations, because I'm very much the person to play it by ear, varying my actions person to person. I'm sure others who are more experienced in the real world pagan community will be able to help you, though.

[SunflowerP]

If a person presents as their craft name, is it rude to ask their legal name? Not so much on a forum, but in person. I was introduced to someone whose name is almost certainly craft but might be legal. Why I am nosey to know this I'm not sure, but I am. Maybe just so I can look them up in the phonebook or something. Or know how to introduce them to others. So would it be rude to ask?

If the name is ambiguous (like, say, non-obvious Tribal names) is it rude to ask if it is legal or craft? On the other hand, if you know someone's legal name and know they are Wiccan, is it rude to ask their craft name? Do many people make their craft name their legal name?

This is no doubt a stupid question (or series of questions) but I'd like to know anyway. I am meeting other pagans in person for the first time and I don't want to be a total klutz.

They're not stupid questions.  The question that's asked is never stupid - it's the unasked ones that create problems.

Generally, the name someone introduces hirself to you by is the name by which they wish to be known to you - which, in turn, will be the name by which you introduce hir to others.  Many people prefer to use a public Craft name in Pagan contexts rather than their legal name, sometimes because they're in the broomcloset, sometimes just because that's what feels right to them... and sometimes as a buffer, because they don't want random folks they've met in the community looking them up in the phone book.  (If you want to be able to contact someone, it's much better to say so directly, and ask if you can have contact info.)

It's not necessarily rude to ask about it, but it is a subject many people are touchy about; you'll want to put a good bit of consideration into how you ask.  You can indicate your interest in more information indirectly by saying something like, "What an interesting name!" which leaves it up to the person what further info, and how much, they wish to offer.  (In my own local community, Mysteel will probably just say, "Thank you" and drop the subject; I might tell the story of how I came to have that name, but may or may not share my legal name; and Kali will laugh and blame it on her mother, because it really is her legal, given-at-birth name.)

If you are asking directly, it's better to phrase it so that the person can refuse to give the information gracefully.  "Do you mind telling me...?", "I was curious and wondered...", "Are you willing to share...?" etc.  Make it clear that you're aware it's not really your business.

For many people (Wicca isn't the only path where this applies), their Craft/magical name is not something to be shared - if they're given, on introduction, what seems to be a Craft name, it's very likely a use-name or a public Craft name; if they've given a "mundane" name, chances are they either don't have a magical name, or it isn't something they share.  You can probably get away with asking, "Do you have a magical name that you're able/willing to tell me about?", especially if you're trying to learn more about the process of choosing a name, but that's about it.

And ALWAYS take "no" for an answer - pushing for more info is definitely rude.

Sunflower

[EverFool]

People will often vary on what they consider rude, so it's hard to predict.  You *could* just ask what their lega name is.  If they're offended, just apologise and indicate you didn't intend said offence.

[Elspeth Sapphire]

If a person presents as their craft name, is it rude to ask their legal name?

What the others said.

While I am not touchy about my name, I have inner names I don't share except for my nearest and best.  Elspeth Sapphire is my clan name ... which I use for everyday. 

[Sunny Dawn]

This is no doubt a stupid question (or series of questions) but I'd like to know anyway. I am meeting other pagans in person for the first time and I don't want to be a total klutz.

Stupid question - not at all.  It sometimes surprises me how even pagan festival organizers mess up on this.  If you give them a craft name and clearly indicate that you wish it used in all contexts at the festival, but include a legal name on the application as requested, you still get people who question why you are using your craft name.  Never ceases to amaze me.

There are people in the pagan community who I know only by their craft name.  In fact, I would be hesitant to ask them their legal names (the names they most likely use at their place of work, and no place else) because I am afraid it would be rude.

[Ezzy]

There are people in the pagan community who I know only by their craft name.  In fact, I would be hesitant to ask them their legal names (the names they most likely use at their place of work, and no place else) because I am afraid it would be rude.

I introduce myself as Ezzy, which is not my legal name but also not my whole craft name either....
there are members of our group that, for one reason or another, have multiple legal names...myself among them...so it is much easier to stick with then craft name in Pagan circle....
I agree with everyone else that there are no stupid questions just unasked ones.  If someone asked me if Ezzy was my legal name I may or may not reveal depending on the person (vibes) and situation...
hope this helps...
Much Light. Love and Laughter...

[RandallS]

I introduce myself as Ezzy...

Welcome to The Cauldron!

[Star]

I introduce myself as Ezzy,

Welcome to the Cauldron!

[Celtee]

I introduce myself as Ezzy

Welcome to The Cauldron!

[Jenett]

If a person presents as their craft name, is it rude to ask their legal name? Not so much on a forum, but in person. I was introduced to someone whose name is almost certainly craft but might be legal. Why I am nosey to know this I'm not sure, but I am. Maybe just so I can look them up in the phonebook or something. Or know how to introduce them to others. So would it be rude to ask?

It's rude on the principle that Miss Manners gives: people will tell you the name that they want you to call them. Demanding to use a different one is generally considered at least pushing it, if not rude. I don't see any reason that changes, when you're talking about Craft names, honestly. I *do* think that there are some times it's okay to ask, but they're not about casual interaction.

There's also the fact that it does, in some ways, privilege a legal name that someone had little choice in picking (usually) over a name that they may feel reflects them better. In a religious community that includes people which put a high priority on the power of words, names, and other related things, saying that one name is 'better' than another is particularly problematic. And if you ask what their 'real' name is, you start doing that.

Which doesn't really help your practical question. As you might guess, I'd bristle a bit at someone expecting to be handed my legal name, but here's where my rough lines are.

My usual progression for giving people information runs like this:

I introduce myself as Jenett:

This is my default for anything in the Pagan community, both online and offline. Casual meeting of someone at an event, exchanging email, introducing myself to a class I'm teaching or helping teach, approaching people about Pagan Pride programming, etc.

Whether or not I'm explicit that it's a Craft name depends on the setting: when we teach Seeker classes, for example, we give public Craft names or a nickname, because we do very occaisionally get weirdos, and we do *not* want them finding phone numbers casually. A few classes in, when we discuss Craft names, we're usually a bit more explicit that the names we've been using are public Craft names.

This is where it stays for 90% of people, I'd guess. I don't need to give my last name if we swap emails (the account I use for personal non-career/work stuff doesn't involve my legal name, etc.) If someone asked, I'd say something like "It's the name I go by in the Pagan community: my last name's pretty uncommon, so I don't give it out unless someone actually needs it."

Asking *is* something that I'd be cautious about: someone asking early in a casual interaction would be a red flag for me in a number of cases: a sign that they might want more from me than I was interested in, because that's been my experience in the past. Someone just asking about the name (correct pronounciation, spelling, where it came from) would be a very different feel, and I'm just fine with that.) If someone said "Gee, Jenett's an unusual name, where's it from?", would probably get an answer "It's actually a good old English witchy name - I've used it broadly as a public Craft name in the Pagan community for about 7 years now." The difference is I got to decide to say that: they didn't ask explicitly.

When does someone get it?
Basically, if they need to contact me in a way where that makes sense. Phone, mostly, since I answer my phone at home and work with my legal name. (Also people who need to get hold of me at work, or who may need my legal name because they're on an emergency call list or something.)

But I generally dislike the phone, and therefore only give it out to specific people who really need to get hold of me that way. Also to students in the group I work in. If needed, I then mention that my legal name is X, and that's how I answer the phone.

I did have a moment of amusement: my new landlady is someone else in the Pagan community who also goes very broadly by her public Craft name. When we had to do the lease paperwork and checks and such, we had a moment of "Oh, yes. What *is* your legal name?" that amused us both. In that case, obviously, it was clearly important. But otherwise, we both go by the names we have chosen.

One other thing to think about: one reason I use Jenett so broadly is that Jennifer is the most common girl's name in the US for 5 years on either side of my birth year. I wanted to pick something that was more identifiably me: I answer *very* badly to Jennifer (you yell it across a field, or across a crowded room, chances are good I won't pay attention.) In that case, having my legal first name does you even less good than not having it, really. For practical reasons, I make a point of telling people the name that will actually get my attention. (Well, *a* name that will get my attention. My private Craft names do too.)

[SunflowerP]

In a religious community that includes people which put a high priority on the power of words, names, and other related things, saying that one name is 'better' than another is particularly problematic. And if you ask what their 'real' name is, you start doing that.

I noticed that Pam was very careful to say "legal name" rather than "real name".  Granted, for some people that's still problematic (implying that any others are "illegal" - very rigidly dualistic, but some folks have trouble with fuzzy greynesses like "extralegal"), but I can't think of any term that wouldn't have that potential for problems.

Sunflower

[Nyktipolos]

-snip-

I go by one of my unwritten rules: Go by the name which the person wants to be known as.

I've spent much of my growing years within the RPG and game communities to know this. Some are just not comfortable with people speaking in public chats or games with their real names. Although this boggles me to no end, I now only call that person by which they feel is a comfortable name.

But then again, for me, names are labels for which applies to my personality and state of mind and body at the time. Although I'll always feel comfortable with my legal name, I have other names in which I think it is much more appropriate when I am in certain moods. Definately a very Obsidian Guild-outlook (Amelia Atwater Rhodes Kiesha'ra) on names, for me. Heh.

All I can say is that if you really really want to know, don't go asking point blank. But perhaps think that the person might not want to reveal another, more personal name, to someone they just met.

[Jenett]

I noticed that Pam was very careful to say "legal name" rather than "real name".  Granted, for some people that's still problematic (implying that any others are "illegal" - very rigidly dualistic, but some folks have trouble with fuzzy greynesses like "extralegal"), but I can't think of any term that wouldn't have that potential for problems.

I thought about that, after I posted, so thank you for mentioning...

Thing is, though, *any* time you ask for a different name than the one that's given, it's implying that the name you're asking for is more important, more 'proper' or arguably more 'real' than the one you've already been given. (Outside of conversations about names in general, or something like that). Because if it's *not* important or relevant, why do you need to know it?

(If someone can see an alternate explanation - besides curiousity, which is fine, but not normally the kind of thing you do to someone you've just met or don't know well - please share?)

I thought a lot about this one during my marriage (I didn't change my last name, which turned out to be a sane choice given the divorce), because I did periodically get people saying "No, really, what's your legal name?"

For those of us using multiple names, it's also problematic: which one is most real of two or three choices? I can easily see a situation in the future where I might potentially have four different names going.

One would be Jenett, which I use widely online.

At my 3rd degree, I intend to take a new name (in addition to my initiation name, which I keep private to people I actually walk into circle with, or would be willing to do so.) That new name will be more public: it's quite possible some people might eventually know me by it first, especially in the local community.

I didn't change my name when I got married (and therefore didn't need to change it back when I got divorced), but I might change it for a future marriage, if one happens.

And if I do that, I may very well already have professional publications under my birth name, and would not want to change the name I go by professionally at that point. (For bonus added nameage, I do eventually hope to get stuff published within the Pagan community, where I would not use my legal name, and would add something to Jenett as a last name.)

Which one's 'real' at that point? The way I see it, it depends on which way you know me, meet me, or whatever. If you want to look up published material, some of those names won't do you much good. If you want to ask someone in my local Pagan community about me, using my legal name will confuse things. And so on. Knowing my legal name doesn't even help: I might at that point have a legitimate Doing Business As name set-up, or be legally using my birth name professionally and my theoretical married name legally.

[SunflowerP]

Thing is, though, *any* time you ask for a different name than the one that's given, it's implying that the name you're asking for is more important, more 'proper' or arguably more 'real' than the one you've already been given. (Outside of conversations about names in general, or something like that). Because if it's *not* important or relevant, why do you need to know it?

<nod>  I think you've put your finger on why all of this is problematic.  "Real" in what context?  On TC, and indeed in the vast bulk of what I do online, "Sunflower" - since it really is a Craft name, and has always been a public Craft name - is a more-real name for me than "Lisa" could possibly be.  But on the other hand, I have no inclination to do a legal name change; in those sorts of contexts, it's not "real" - that is, it not only isn't relevant, it wouldn't work for me to try to make it relevant.

Sunflower

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