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Author Topic: Nationalism  (Read 12835 times)
LyricFox
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« Reply #30: July 14, 2007, 07:48:10 am »

While it would be nice to have us reduce our carbon emissions to help the world, killing our economy but letting China and others increase their carbon emissions to grow their economy is suicide. you'd be letting one of the largest polluters and weakest respect for the enviroment dominate the world economically.

I think that's the wrong approach. Much of what is going to need to be done will be done dragging China kicking and screaming with us. It also means there will be economic issues that come up because the sorts of things that will need to be done can't be done as a completely unregulated free market system. If the US doesn't participate, I think it undermines our position as a world leader.

The thing is, it's pretty obvious that global warming and the things that contribute to it have to be tackled with a multi-prong attack...something that is going to be tough to do while there's so much screaming from the people who deny that anything is happening.
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« Reply #31: July 14, 2007, 12:57:13 pm »

I think that's the wrong approach. Much of what is going to need to be done will be done dragging China kicking and screaming with us. It also means there will be economic issues that come up because the sorts of things that will need to be done can't be done as a completely unregulated free market system. If the US doesn't participate, I think it undermines our position as a world leader.

The thing is, it's pretty obvious that global warming and the things that contribute to it have to be tackled with a multi-prong attack...something that is going to be tough to do while there's so much screaming from the people who deny that anything is happening.

Hmm. I think you are misunderstanding my objections. I hope you are.

If we can get China, and other countries to reduce carbon emissions at the same time as we do then it won't kill our economy while boosting theirs. I don't see the problem as a free market or not free market issue. It's a problem with giving other countries a pass on the rules.

It's also not an arguement about wether or not global climate change is happening.  Actually, if anything it's an arguement that the change is happening so Everybody has to change.

Now there are a lot of things I think the US should be doing that will reduce our contribution to global warming, and will not hurt our economy in the middle to long term. And such things will have other benifits.
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LyricFox
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« Reply #32: July 14, 2007, 01:22:12 pm »

Hmm. I think you are misunderstanding my objections. I hope you are.

I think I am for the most part.

Quote
If we can get China, and other countries to reduce carbon emissions at the same time as we do then it won't kill our economy while boosting theirs. I don't see the problem as a free market or not free market issue. It's a problem with giving other countries a pass on the rules.

I think where the free market argument comes in is when talking to people within the industries that are going to have to do the changing (I posted something over in the environmental folder this morning that pretty well typifies it, I think).

And I think you do have to look at it from a "what if?" perspective. What if it is shown that CE reductions will make a significant impact. And what if third world and developing countries refuse to modify their plants/systems? Do you ignore the problem? Walk away? Make changes regardless?

Quote
It's also not an arguement about wether or not global climate change is happening.  Actually, if anything it's an arguement that the change is happening so Everybody has to change.


No argument from me. But there are a whole lot of people heavily invested in keeping their eyes shut and mouths open.

Quote
Now there are a lot of things I think the US should be doing that will reduce our contribution to global warming, and will not hurt our economy in the middle to long term. And such things will have other benifits.


I suspect that's a very good place to start. Because lets face it, we're going to have to address it one way or the other. I'd just as soon do it while there is time to have some choice in our approach.
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« Reply #33: July 14, 2007, 01:48:58 pm »


I think where the free market argument comes in is when talking to people within the industries that are going to have to do the changing (I posted something over in the environmental folder this morning that pretty well typifies it, I think).

And I think you do have to look at it from a "what if?" perspective. What if it is shown that CE reductions will make a significant impact. And what if third world and developing countries refuse to modify their plants/systems? Do you ignore the problem? Walk away? Make changes regardless?
 

I saw your earlier post in Enviromental news. I skimmed the article, but didn't carefully read it. It seemed to be nothing really new. One industry that would have to change complains about the cost of doing so. Every group rolls out the same thing. Free market would lose market share. Command ecomony they'd complain they couldn't meet 5 year plan.

As for the what if..

I guess you could make changes that result in the US being poor 3rd world country while the rest of the world keeps doing things that destroys the US.

More realistically, economic warfare until the other countries do change. you might have to move to actual military action.

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LyricFox
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« Reply #34: July 14, 2007, 05:39:31 pm »

I saw your earlier post in Enviromental news. I skimmed the article, but didn't carefully read it. It seemed to be nothing really new. One industry that would have to change complains about the cost of doing so. Every group rolls out the same thing. Free market would lose market share. Command ecomony they'd complain they couldn't meet 5 year plan.

I think it's pretty much the same argument (the Duke Energy one) that you hear frequently. I just wasn't sure if you'd read it, and that was the particular part I was wanting to be sure we were discussing.

Quote
As for the what if..

I guess you could make changes that result in the US being poor 3rd world country while the rest of the world keeps doing things that destroys the US.

More realistically, economic warfare until the other countries do change. you might have to move to actual military action.

I suspect it's the economic warfare option that would win out. By ourselves, I'm not sure that would be particularly effective, but grouped with other countries it would be. Of course, this seems to be what the unregulated free market thinkers are talking about when they set their worst course options.


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« Reply #35: July 19, 2007, 06:51:06 pm »

Basically, what I mean is that it is impossible to rate countries along the lines of total "goodness" or "worth."  There are simple too many variables:

Health care system
Education
Religion
Environmental impact
Foreign policy
Natural resources
Human rights
Animal welfare
Government
Population growth
Food production
Sanitation

etc. etc.  Plus, the subjectivity of it all is maddening. 

I agree 100%. Making a blanket statement that Country X is better than Country Y is misguided, IMHO. The most one can say is that, if you value A more than B, then from your perspective Country X is better than Country Y...and even then, all the subjectivity and complicating factors Aasha mentioned still apply.

BTW, count me as a strong proponent of relativism. That doesn't mean I don't make judgments (as anyone who reads my overly opinionated posts can surely tell); it means that I recognize that my judgments are based on a particular set of assumptions and values, and that these assumptions and values are neither immutable nor universal.
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« Reply #36: July 20, 2007, 10:00:42 am »

In theory I don't have a problem with people having pride in their country, if it isn't a stick to beat people with.  But I have to say, when I see the Union jack or the England flag...  I do feel defensive.  At the instinctive level, I don't trust the people who wave the flag of my country.

I've been discussing the ethics (or lack thereof) of our national policies with a coworker.  At one point, while exclaiming he was glad and proud to live here over anywhere else, when I asked if it was because we were living up to the idea of American values, he couldn't say we were.  When I asked if it was because of our power, he paused for a while and and said yes.

Look at the people who are still mad at the French for not supporting our botched, ill-advised and costly war.

I think a lot of people are more proud about our power/supremacy (which is an old idea here) more than the idea we're supporting democracy and freedom around the world.
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« Reply #37: July 14, 2009, 03:31:35 am »

I've been discussing the ethics (or lack thereof) of our national policies with a coworker.  At one point, while exclaiming he was glad and proud to live here over anywhere else, when I asked if it was because we were living up to the idea of American values, he couldn't say we were.  When I asked if it was because of our power, he paused for a while and and said yes.

Look at the people who are still mad at the French for not supporting our botched, ill-advised and costly war.

I think a lot of people are more proud about our power/supremacy (which is an old idea here) more than the idea we're supporting democracy and freedom around the world.


I know it's been awhile since anyone has posted in this thread, but I have to agree with the idea that this country is not living up to its full potential, and it's very difficult to say something like that without someone hopping all over you and telling you to "leave" (Even though you come from a family of military personnel and civil rights activists.) I DO believe a lot of people are drunk with power when it comes to being an American, which is why so many people were "shocked" when we started entering this recession, were "pissed" when it turned out that our approval rating around the world was plummeting, and honestly believe that as "America" we have the right to do anything, anywhere, to anyone because we're right/just/fair/a beacon of freedom- choose your jingoistic adjective and insert it here.

I haven't said the pledge of allegiance since I was 13 and I don't sing the National Anthem- I believe this country is still living a big lie and until we're willing to face our own inadequacies and personal failures, no I'm not willing to die for it or pledge undying devotion to it.

I do believe we have made some great strides in our short history, but it's like that old saying "the more things seem to change, the more they stay the same."
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« Reply #38: July 14, 2009, 06:37:54 am »

I know it's been awhile since anyone has posted in this thread, but I have to agree with the idea that this country is not living up to its full potential, and it's very difficult to say something like that without someone hopping all over you and telling you to "leave"
Why let truth and justice get in the way of (Even though you come from a family of military personnel and civil rights activists.) I DO believe a lot of people are drunk with power when it comes to being an American, which is why so many people were "shocked" when we started entering this recession, were "pissed" when it turned out that our approval rating around the world was plummeting, and honestly believe that as "America" we have the right to do anything, anywhere, to anyone because we're right/just/fair/a beacon of freedom- choose your jingoistic adjective and insert it here.

Why let truth, justice and what the rest of the world thinks get in the way of Manifest Destiny?


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« Reply #39: August 24, 2009, 09:06:42 pm »

Nationalism has always bothered me.  Particularly symbolic shows of it, such as saluting the flag & reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.  I have a hard time accepting the idea that people should be symbolically separated by national boundaries, and that obedience and the fulfillment of duty (loyalty, military service, etc.) are necessary.     

I don't want to use religion as a cop-out, but are there any spiritual ideas that would explain how I feel?  Help me clean up the muddled feeling of discomfort and replace it with a clear understanding of exactly what is wrong with nationalism?   

I also know that many people here would disagree with me.  please, share your opinions and beliefs as well.  But note that I understand the importance and usefulness of countries, as economic and political units.  I just do not agree with nationalism, the concept.     

This answer will make me sound a bit conspiracy theorist,but I have always associated Nationalism with Fascism. But then I tend to Leeean way over towards the left wing libertarian end of the spectrum anyways
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« Reply #40: August 24, 2009, 09:31:33 pm »

This answer will make me sound a bit conspiracy theorist,but I have always associated Nationalism with Fascism. But then I tend to Leeean way over towards the left wing libertarian end of the spectrum anyways

Facism is the left wing totalitarian version of nationalism. As opposed to the left wing totalitarian version of an internationalist perspective.
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LyricFox
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« Reply #41: August 24, 2009, 09:51:49 pm »

Facism is the left wing totalitarian version of nationalism. As opposed to the left wing totalitarian version of an internationalist perspective.

Ah...no. Facism is a right wing manifestation. Despite what Jonah Goldberg and some of the Fox talking heads say, fascism isn't something that comes from the left
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« Reply #42: August 24, 2009, 09:56:43 pm »

Facism is the left wing totalitarian version of nationalism. As opposed to the left wing totalitarian version of an internationalist perspective.

Fascism is RIGHT WING, Peter. I realize that is is fashionable among modern conservative talking heads to try to rewrite the history of the first half of the 20th century to make it be liberal, but it wasn't. And all the revisionist history in the world will not make it so.
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« Reply #43: August 24, 2009, 10:03:40 pm »

Ah...no. Facism is a right wing manifestation. Despite what Jonah Goldberg and some of the Fox talking heads say, fascism isn't something that comes from the left

Socialist Workers Party.
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« Reply #44: August 24, 2009, 10:08:38 pm »

Socialist Workers Party.

Your point? The SWP is Communist. Fascism is most reflective of the opposite of Communism.

I realize that it's imperative for the people on the right who have been tossing words around with no concern to their meaning to make these words now be reflective of the political left. That isn't going to fly here, Peter. There are too many people on this board with a better than common grasp of history and political issues.


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