The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
June 12, 2021, 07:55:20 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
June 12, 2021, 07:55:20 am

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Least Favorite Stories from Mythology  (Read 13630 times)
SatAset
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:November 06, 2011, 11:27:55 pm
United States United States

Religion: Kemetic Orthodox, Heathen, Orisa devotee
Posts: 886


Avatar and Sig Image by Lykaios

Blog entries (1)



Ignore
« Reply #15: March 20, 2007, 10:46:35 pm »

I'm really not exactly sure what about Aset in these particular myths bugs me so much, but She does.  I think it might be partly to do with the fact that:
 
1.  I myself am really not a maternal-type woman at all, and so Her actions are probably really beyond the scope of my understanding


2.   My mom works in a high school and I hear stories almost daily about parents that think that THEIR kid is SO damn special, the rules don't/should not apply to their pwecious iddle child, and they can do NO wrong.  And you hear no end to them butting in where they shouldn't, trying to manipulate the system for their brats, trying to force everyone to let their child be the best whether the kid actually IS, blaming the teachers for the CHILD'S failures, etc.  Kinda the whole "soccer mom" thing.

I guess where some people might see "strong loving mother-figure" in the myths, I see just "sneaky underhanded soccer mom."

Huh. 

Well, there are two if not three levels to myths in Kemetic religion and the literal myth is only one way to read it.  I guess I'm just reading it as a person who follows Aset and you're reading it from a "sacred narrative of someone else" point of view.
Logged

I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --Me

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

SunWolf
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:July 20, 2007, 04:26:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Pagan
Posts: 64

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #16: May 01, 2007, 06:14:40 pm »

Not really a complaint, just a difference of opinion about whether one should apply modern standards of sexual equality to ancient cultures.

Can you elaborate on this?  I suspect I'm misinterpreting what you meant by that, so I'm asking.  Thanks.

SunWolf
Logged
SunWolf
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:July 20, 2007, 04:26:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Pagan
Posts: 64

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #17: May 01, 2007, 06:17:40 pm »

In counterpoint to the other thread, I'm sure I'm not alone in finding that there are some tales in mythologies that I dislike.   Which ones don't you like?


I find I relate really well to the myth of Persephone, but the rape part I have trouble with.  I read somewhere that there was another version, possibly older and that in that version, Persephone saw the suffering of people in the underworld and went down there voluntarily to comfort them, she being super compassionate.

I don't know where I read that, and I've only ever heard of such a thing once, so it could have been on some white light New Age-y webpage or something, but it made me feel better. 

:::looking over shoulder in anticipation of barrage::
SunWolf
Logged
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #18: May 01, 2007, 06:22:40 pm »

Can you elaborate on this?  I suspect I'm misinterpreting what you meant by that, so I'm asking.  Thanks.

I'm not really sure what I mean after 6 weeks, but I suspect I meant that it makes little sense to judge an ancient culture's standards by modern standards -- even on issues we may consider central such as sexual equality. Equally, it would make little sense to just modern cultures by the standards of ancient cultures.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Malkin
Journeyman
***
Last Login:July 04, 2011, 07:53:38 pm
United States United States

Religion: BTW
Posts: 239


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #19: May 01, 2007, 08:44:20 pm »

I'm not really sure what I mean after 6 weeks, but I suspect I meant that it makes little sense to judge an ancient culture's standards by modern standards -- even on issues we may consider central such as sexual equality. Equally, it would make little sense to just modern cultures by the standards of ancient cultures.

Yet, we're forced to do that, aren't we? We choose what to incorporate into our modern lives based on our modern morals. Celtic Recons don't throw people in bogs, because we judge that now to be wrong.

If you're saying we can't judge ancient priests for throwing people in bogs, then that makes more sense - it was acceptable at the time. But I find it difficult to step back and withold my judgement completely. Especially when Pagans denounce the vengeful acts of Jehovah, and yet are total apologists for the carnage sometimes doled out by various Pagan gods. (I mean, Apollo was a dealer out of plagues as well.)
Logged

Thessaly: It's time to draw down the moon.
Foxglove: We did this. Or something like this. We had water and salt, not blood. We invoked the goddess in her aspect as the moon. We called down her power...
Thessaly: Did she answer you?
Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
Thessaly: Hmph.
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #20: May 01, 2007, 10:50:46 pm »

If you're saying we can't judge ancient priests for throwing people in bogs, then that makes more sense - it was acceptable at the time.

That's exactly what I mean.

Quote
But I find it difficult to step back and withold my judgement completely. Especially when Pagans denounce the vengeful acts of Jehovah, and yet are total apologists for the carnage sometimes doled out by various Pagan gods. (I mean, Apollo was a dealer out of plagues as well.)

You must not hang out with Recons -- who often do neither. Smiley
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Malkin
Journeyman
***
Last Login:July 04, 2011, 07:53:38 pm
United States United States

Religion: BTW
Posts: 239


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #21: May 02, 2007, 01:31:13 am »

That's exactly what I mean.

Oh, good.  Smiley

Quote
You must not hang out with Recons -- who often do neither. Smiley

Really? Where can I get in on this?! Grin
Logged

Thessaly: It's time to draw down the moon.
Foxglove: We did this. Or something like this. We had water and salt, not blood. We invoked the goddess in her aspect as the moon. We called down her power...
Thessaly: Did she answer you?
Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
Thessaly: Hmph.
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #22: May 02, 2007, 08:14:19 am »

Really? Where can I get in on this?! Grin

You will find a few recon-types here on this board. Shocked
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
fiamma
Master Member
****
Last Login:May 17, 2012, 04:14:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Devotee of Apollo/Hellenic Polytheist
Posts: 554


...I'm playing with fire and not getting burned...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #23: May 02, 2007, 01:20:51 pm »

Oh, good.  Smiley

Really? Where can I get in on this?! Grin

Are you interested in any particular cultural reconstruction?
Logged

Memories of Pain and Light
http://painandlight.wordpress.com/

Simple acts of devotion will never suffice.
You, I cannot worship by halves.
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #24: May 02, 2007, 01:28:21 pm »

If you're saying we can't judge ancient priests for throwing people in bogs, then that makes more sense - it was acceptable at the time. But I find it difficult to step back and withold my judgement completely. Especially when Pagans denounce the vengeful acts of Jehovah, and yet are total apologists for the carnage sometimes doled out by various Pagan gods. (I mean, Apollo was a dealer out of plagues as well.)

The one distinction I will point out is that most Pagan gods never claimed to be all-loving.  The difference between all-loving and sending out plagues and with-failings and sending out plagues is pretty big.

That said, I'm willing to judge the gods for being naughty, too.  ain't been struck by lightning yet! Cheesy
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
SunWolf
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:July 20, 2007, 04:26:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Pagan
Posts: 64

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #25: May 02, 2007, 05:54:32 pm »

I'm not really sure what I mean after 6 weeks, but I suspect I meant that it makes little sense to judge an ancient culture's standards by modern standards -- even on issues we may consider central such as sexual equality. Equally, it would make little sense to just modern cultures by the standards of ancient cultures.

Okay.  I agree with that for the most part, but I have to make an exception for rape.  As far as I'm concerned, not okay now, not okay then.  Whether it's done by a person, a god, or an alien from Jupiter, it's all not okay to me. 

Other things, though, I do think need to be put into historical context.  Also, I personally like my gods to have flaws and do things in a fit of temper, even if I don't like those things.  I'd have a really hard time relating to a deity who never got pissed off or jealous or greedy or whatever. 

SunWolf
Logged
HeartShadow - Cutethulhu
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
Grand Adept Member
****
Last Login:April 15, 2013, 06:53:07 pm
United States United States

Religion: FlameKeeper
TCN ID: GenevieveWood
Posts: 8627


I am the Pirate Teddybear!

Blog entries (0)

WWW
« Reply #26: May 02, 2007, 06:22:18 pm »

Okay.  I agree with that for the most part, but I have to make an exception for rape.  As far as I'm concerned, not okay now, not okay then.  Whether it's done by a person, a god, or an alien from Jupiter, it's all not okay to me. 

Other things, though, I do think need to be put into historical context.  Also, I personally like my gods to have flaws and do things in a fit of temper, even if I don't like those things.  I'd have a really hard time relating to a deity who never got pissed off or jealous or greedy or whatever. 

SunWolf

Something to keep in mind: Rape, when used in that type of historical context, is a theft from the "owner" of the woman.  It doesn't necessarily mean the woman herself was unwilling.

Actual rape, yeah, NEVER okay.  Rape as used in this context?  can mean abduction.  even *willing* abduction.  (because the woman can't consent)
Logged




FlameKeeping website: http://www.flamekeeping.org
Malkin
Journeyman
***
Last Login:July 04, 2011, 07:53:38 pm
United States United States

Religion: BTW
Posts: 239


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #27: May 02, 2007, 06:48:55 pm »

Are you interested in any particular cultural reconstruction?

I've been looking into Celtic Reconstructionism lately (I'm on the Imbas mailing list and have begun reading a few Recon-recommended books on the subject) but I'm still dancing around the subject at this point.

Something to keep in mind: Rape, when used in that type of historical context, is a theft from the "owner" of the woman.  It doesn't necessarily mean the woman herself was unwilling.
... Rape as used in this context?  can mean abduction.  even *willing* abduction.  (because the woman can't consent)

Right; in many classical cultures, women were considered chattel, not capable of saying "yes" or "no." To steal a woman was like stealing a cow - in the way that no one would ever think to consider the cow's feelings, people didn't think to consider the woman's feelings, whether negative or positive.
Logged

Thessaly: It's time to draw down the moon.
Foxglove: We did this. Or something like this. We had water and salt, not blood. We invoked the goddess in her aspect as the moon. We called down her power...
Thessaly: Did she answer you?
Foxglove: Well, it felt good at the time. Empowering.
Thessaly: Hmph.
SunWolf
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:July 20, 2007, 04:26:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Pagan
Posts: 64

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #28: May 03, 2007, 04:14:28 pm »

Something to keep in mind: Rape, when used in that type of historical context, is a theft from the "owner" of the woman.  It doesn't necessarily mean the woman herself was unwilling.

Actual rape, yeah, NEVER okay.  Rape as used in this context?  can mean abduction.  even *willing* abduction.  (because the woman can't consent)

Ah!  I didn't know that.  I mean, I knew that women were considered chattel, but I didn't extrapolate from that, that rape in that context didn't necessarily refer to the willingness of the woman herself.  That's the tidbit of info I was missing.  Things make more sense now. 

Thanks for enlightening me.
SunWolf
Logged
Caroline
Master Member
****
Last Login:October 07, 2011, 11:24:24 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: polytheist
Posts: 478

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #29: May 03, 2007, 05:09:35 pm »

Ah!  I didn't know that.  I mean, I knew that women were considered chattel, but I didn't extrapolate from that, that rape in that context didn't necessarily refer to the willingness of the woman herself.  That's the tidbit of info I was missing.  Things make more sense now. 

Thanks for enlightening me.
SunWolf

The mindset in ancient cultures is often hard for us moderns to twist our brains around. For instance in ancient Athens, if a woman was caught in an affair with a lover, it actually went better for him if she cried rape. Seduction - meaning the man had influenced/perverted her mind and morals so that she had been willing (even if legally she had no right of consent) was punished far more harshly. Understanding this viewpoint puts the actions in many myths and plays in a different light. A heroine was depicted as being raped (and often being/falling in love with and later marrying her rapist) because it made her a morally sympathetic character that the audience could approve of and like.

Caroline
Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Favorite Stories from Mythology « 1 2 3 »
Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology
elizwrite 33 14541 Last post June 09, 2007, 01:12:16 pm
by Serenah
The Stories Behind Your Symbols « 1 2 »
Social Discussion Boards
Ligeia 28 8927 Last post September 06, 2008, 01:27:52 am
by Jericho Gray
Camping Stories Here
Sports and Recreation
Sperran 7 2856 Last post July 09, 2008, 05:31:37 pm
by rose
Favorite Songs from Favorite Bands? « 1 2 3 4 »
Music, Television, and Film
FierFlye 53 22457 Last post January 29, 2009, 07:47:49 pm
by ladywhitewolf
Why Do People Have To Tell Stories? « 1 2 3 »
Philosophy and Metaphysics
Altair 32 13092 Last post May 14, 2009, 09:56:32 pm
by Caeia Iulia Regillia
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.076 seconds with 49 queries.