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Author Topic: ADMIN: Public Moderation Messages  (Read 16009 times)
RandallS
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« Reply #30: August 27, 2007, 07:12:08 pm »

I can see where there would be confusion about that. A rule on most boards is that you are NOT to double post, but rather edit the post before it.


Every board is entitled to their own rules and ways of doing things.However, IMHO, that rule can cause all sorts of havoc on debate boards. People go back and modify there points to negate what others have said in reply, etc. Non-debate boards don't really have this issue.  But there is still the issue of if 30 people read you post before it changed, they are never going to know unless they happen to go back to read earlier messages for some reason.
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« Reply #31: August 27, 2007, 07:37:39 pm »

I can see where there would be confusion about that. A rule on most boards is that you are NOT to double post, but rather edit the post before it. This was a major mind-swap for me to get used to the double posting (especially since I was staff on a few of them and had to yell at people for double posting!)

Oh, I KNOW!! Isn't it just awful? Grin

I'm going to ask a dumb question.  I seem to be misunderstanding the term double post.  What does it mean in the context in which everyone else seems to be using it?
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« Reply #32: August 27, 2007, 07:41:21 pm »

I'm going to ask a dumb question.  I seem to be misunderstanding the term double post.  What does it mean in the context in which everyone else seems to be using it?

to post twice in a row.  as in, I post to you, then I post in the next one to someone else.

for some reason, this drives some people crazy.  I don't get it.
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« Reply #33: August 27, 2007, 07:50:39 pm »

to post twice in a row.  as in, I post to you, then I post in the next one to someone else.

for some reason, this drives some people crazy.  I don't get it.

OK, this makes sense, but I've never been on a board that got upset about it.  I was on a board where people were allowed to do massive changes to previously posted stuff that drove me nuts.

I look at changing the past this way.  On a board it isn't nearly as critical as the situation I'm going to describe, but almost as aggravating.

Earlier this week, day nurse corrects a medication time to a more appropriate time of 6 am (night shift) from the 8am (day shift) that it had been for the first 2 doses of the drug. Resident already got most of his meds at 6 am, so the move did make sense. Fine.  BUT.. . . .when she did this, she did this after yours truly the night nurse had left for the day, and DID NOT administer the drug herself on the day shift.  Because of the change she wrote, I got wrote up for a med error, for not administering the drug, because the patient missed a dose.  I wrote up a grievence.  The card had been initialed, so we knew which day hadn't given the drug.  I was PO'd to say the least.

OK, I've been looking for a good place to vent this.  It's vented, thank you.
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« Reply #34: August 27, 2007, 09:29:41 pm »

yes, exactly.  Just like I'm about to when I reply later in the thread as well.  It's no big deal here.

Thank You for explaining..

even though some may think I was trying to be difficult, I was Not.. This was indeed a serious question asked, that I needed an answer for..
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« Reply #35: August 28, 2007, 02:24:56 am »


Non-debate boards don't really have this issue. 


I know another debate board that actually *locks out* edits after a few minutes; members can't even go back to fix their spelling. ... given the rube-goldberg-esqe structure of the board software of TC, I doubt you could apply that kind of mod here though ...
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« Reply #36: August 28, 2007, 08:16:13 am »

I know another debate board that actually *locks out* edits after a few minutes; members can't even go back to fix their spelling. ... given the rube-goldberg-esqe structure of the board software of TC, I doubt you could apply that kind of mod here though ...

We might be able to, but I'm not interested in doing so.  If folks can't follow a simple rule, they need to find another board not ruin things for all the members who do follow the rule.
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« Reply #37: August 28, 2007, 09:13:19 am »


Every board is entitled to their own rules and ways of doing things.However, IMHO, that rule can cause all sorts of havoc on debate boards. People go back and modify there points to negate what others have said in reply, etc. Non-debate boards don't really have this issue.  But there is still the issue of if 30 people read you post before it changed, they are never going to know unless they happen to go back to read earlier messages for some reason.


I can see this happening. This is the first board I've been on that actually *specified* debate board, so...

for some reason, this drives some people crazy.  I don't get it.

Because it takes up more space on the page, and in the database as well. I don't think that that is a HUGE issue, but if you're a forum run on limited space, it might be.
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« Reply #38: February 05, 2009, 07:16:02 pm »

Pixie,

if you have problems with the way Randall has handled matters, I strongly suggest taking it up with him personally over e-mail, as that will get a far more favorable response than picking a fight in public, which is what this comes across as.

--Chabas
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Randall referred me to this thread and I've been reading through it, as a way of reassuring myself that there are indeed reasonable explanations for public shaming (intended or just known (as in 'I know this may hurt this person and that they may feel publicly humiliated out of all proportion to the situation as I see it, but too bad. I don't care because I didn't mean to make them feel bad')) as a moderation technique.

Having read this far I'm confused; the argument seems to be that if regular posters make an innocent 'mistake' in public that means they should be publicly 'shamed' to prevent others from making the same mistake, but if a moderator is publicly rude/insensitive that should be dealt with in private? Why? because it would undermine the mod's? becuase they are real people and sometimes have bad days and shouldn't be publicly shamed for it?


Just need a little clarity. If the answer is a simple 'yes, it's a hypocritical double standard, get used to it', that's fine, but I like to see it honestly stated.
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« Reply #39: February 05, 2009, 08:53:49 pm »



Do you honestly equate a reminder to follow the rules with shame?  Especially when reading and agreeing to follow the rules is a requirement for joining in the first place?

I've seen forums where all moderation is done in private.  There is always the suspicion that only 'some' people get moderated, and that staff members play favourites, whether that actually happens or not.  Transparency requires that such things be done openly.  Smooth running of the board does not allow debate about the rules to take place in-thread, because it tends to derail threads and leave them followed and contributed to only by those with an axe to grind.

Private argument about a rules call, made by the person modded, has resulted in public reversals of warnings and even bannings.  Transparency applies to that as well, even if it doesn't happen as often.  The reason it doesn't happen as often is that the staff try to only moderate on clear rules violations, and will generally keep the first few mentions of minor violations down to gentle reminders.

A recent case in point - a member who had been modded on a few legitimate violations was warned for editing a post after it had been replied to.  It turned out that the responder (me, which is why I remember it so clearly) had actually been responding some time after the edit.  I open several threads at once in tabs and was answering after the edit - I thought my difficulty in getting the quote to transfer was a software problem, but it was a tab problem.  Randall reversed the warning, publicly, after the member e-mailed him with his understanding of the matter and I realised what the problem had been.

The way things are handled on this board is neither hypocritical nor cruel.  It is public and transparent and possibly difficult to deal with for people who view it as shameful to be reminded of the rules, but I think it would be far more damaging to have suspicions/accusations of favouritism floating around.

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« Reply #40: February 05, 2009, 08:58:17 pm »



I seem to be repeatedly failing to communicate my point (both on this thread and in private) and the resulting consternation I feel I am causing is out of proportion to the point I wanted to make in the beginning. Perhaps my failure of communication could be taken in part as demonstration of the point I wanted to make; however, I am sorry for any offense.

The Hosts, Staff and other volunteers associated with TC have been top quality for as long as I can remember (full stop)
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« Reply #41: February 05, 2009, 09:21:11 pm »

Randall referred me to this thread and I've been reading through it, as a way of reassuring myself that there are indeed reasonable explanations for public shaming....

Public moderation is now "public shaming"? Oh well, so be it. Renaming it does not change the reasons we do it listed earlier in this thread. One could call it "murder" if one wished and that will not change the reasons we do it nor the Hosts' mind that it is better than private moderation for the long term good of the board.

People are warned up front in the rules that moderation is public. It isn't a surprise to anyone (except those who broke their promise to read the rules before posting). As it is announced in advance, people with egos so fragile that being publicly reminded to quote or told not to make personal attacks or whatever is going to destroy their self-esteem and make them feel two microns high can choose, upon reading those rules, to post anyway, never post, or even never return to this board. To be blunt, this is a debate and discussion board -- someone with an ego so fragile that being told to follow the rules in public is going to humiliate them probably should not be posting on a debate and discussion board.

Quote
Having read this far I'm confused; the argument seems to be that if regular posters make an innocent 'mistake' in public that means they should be publicly 'shamed' to prevent others from making the same mistake, but if a moderator is publicly rude/insensitive that should be dealt with in private?

Your terminology -- not mine, but yes. I've been running online message areas both on my own and as staff for others since the mid-1980s. I have seen and experienced many different styles of moderation and that which you describe above has always seemed to work best in the long term -- especially for very active boards with a large membership and multiple staff members. This is even more important for a message board geared to debate and discussion...a pure fellowship-type of board might be able to run smoothly without it, but this type of board really can't.

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Why? because it would undermine the mod's? becuase they are real people and sometimes have bad days and shouldn't be publicly shamed for it?

No, because mods are VOLUNTEER workers doing a lot of work for nothing. It is considered bad management form to dress down paid employees in front of customers and it makes even less sense to dress down volunteer workers in front of "customers."  I'm sure there are those who do not like this policy for reasons they consider very good. It doesn't matter, the decision is for Lyric and myself to make, and we have set this policy because we believe it to be the best way to retain both staff and members over the long term.

Quote
Just need a little clarity. If the answer is a simple 'yes, it's a hypocritical double standard, get used to it', that's fine, but I like to see it honestly stated.

I don't consider it a "hypocritical double standard" but I understand if you do. However, people will have to live with it (however they choose to consider it) if they wish to participate in this board. People who don't like it are free to go elsewhere or even start their own board and run it as they think best.
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Randall
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« Reply #42: February 05, 2009, 09:27:42 pm »

I seem to be repeatedly failing to communicate my point (both on this thread and in private)...

We are replying to the point(s) we see in your messages, if they aren't the points you are trying to make then you may need to try to explain them differently.  Undecided

Quote
...however, I am sorry for any offense.

Offense? I don't think anyone on staff is offended by your comments, just a bit confused by them at times (and not persuaded to change things by them). The fact that you think they might be offensive shows that we see the world (or the "how to run message boards" part of it, at least Wink) through very different sets of filters.

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« Reply #43: November 18, 2009, 12:09:21 am »


I've seen forums where all moderation is done in private.  There is always the suspicion that only 'some' people get moderated, and that staff members play favourites, whether that actually happens or not.  Transparency requires that such things be done openly.  Smooth running of the board does not allow debate about the rules to take place in-thread, because it tends to derail threads and leave them followed and contributed to only by those with an axe to grind.

While I agree that a reminder to use the reply/quote when posting doesn't  qualify  as "public shaming" I do not agree with  your  presentation opposing the use of private moderating nor do I feel that public moderating is the only approach to a smooth running board.

 I feel different moderating styles have different problems and this discussion is further evidence of this truth. If this were any sort of  support forum  for say ausburgers or PTSD  public moderating would probably be one of the fastest ways to end up with a debate forum or an empty message board.


 While private moderating may raise some suspicions {occasionally}  it does  avoid the public humiliation problem completely, and it is less intrusive because you do not interupt discussions.

I see  moderating styles being relative to the community atmosphere you are aiming to create having nothing to do with absolute right verses absolutely wrong   Based upon my observations the moderating style of any given community  has more to do with personal preferences of those who own /run the site. ., after all they pay the bills, scrub the floors  and  take out the trash.   I see no reason  for it to be any different because  no one site no matter  how it is run  or moderated is going to be able to please 100% of the people 100% of the time- Some one some where is going to complain any way.

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« Reply #44: November 18, 2009, 05:39:52 am »

I feel different moderating styles have different problems and this discussion is further evidence of this truth. If this were any sort of  support forum  for say ausburgers or PTSD  public moderating would probably be one of the fastest ways to end up with a debate forum or an empty message board.

Quite possibly--but the thing is, this is not a support forum and a debate forum is the desired outcome.  Wink  I think the context of this entire discussion has been understood to be regarding a forum of the particular type we're trying to run.  Obviously a different board with different goals would have different needs.  Since we are not a support board, for example, there was little need to bring the potential needs of such a board into the discussion.
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