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Author Topic: Difference Between Wiccan & Neo-Wiccan  (Read 10753 times)
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« Topic Start: July 16, 2007, 08:10:47 pm »

Just to clarify, I consider myself to be Eclectic (since I do not belong to a specific traditional coven), but consider my Wiccan beliefs and practices to be very similar to those of Trad Wiccans. I know that most people consider Wiccans those who belong to a BTW coven through lineage and initiation and those who are solitary practitioners as Neo-Wiccan. If someone has a disability that would prohibit them from belonging to a coven, but follows the traditional ways in their solitary practice (minus belonging to a coven), what would they be considered?
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« Reply #1: July 16, 2007, 10:54:06 pm »

I know that most people consider Wiccans those who belong to a BTW coven through lineage and initiation and those who are solitary practitioners as Neo-Wiccan.

I coined the term (at least on TC -- I'm sure others invented it independently about the same time, however) and I meant it simply to distinguish between the more traditional style of Wicca derived from BT beliefs and practices and the newer (and sanitized of things that might be too offensive like sex) religion much more loosely based on traditional Wicca that took form in the early 1990s with the publication of books by Ravenwolf and others.

"Neo-Wicca" is often used in a pejorative sense today, although these is nothing pejorative about my original usage. Wicca isn't better than Neo-Wicca (or vice verse), just different enough to need a separate name.
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« Reply #2: July 17, 2007, 12:08:34 am »

Just to clarify, I consider myself to be Eclectic (since I do not belong to a specific traditional coven), but consider my Wiccan beliefs and practices to be very similar to those of Trad Wiccans.

Try me.  Smiley


I know that most people consider Wiccans those who belong to a BTW coven through lineage and initiation and those who are solitary practitioners as Neo-Wiccan.

I had to read that several times to figure it out.  You win the Most Tortured Syntax Award for the day.  Congrats!  Smiley


If someone has a disability that would prohibit them from belonging to a coven, but follows the traditional ways in their solitary practice (minus belonging to a coven), what would they be considered?

Okay, you've been speaking English up till now.  What makes you think that a disability would disqualify one from belonging to a coven?  What exactly do you mean by disability?

As for the question, anyone who is not initiated and sworn into a BTW coven is neo-Wiccan.  Or McWiccan.  Or not Wiccan at all.  Depending.


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« Reply #3: July 17, 2007, 01:47:38 am »

Try me.  Smiley


I had to read that several times to figure it out.  You win the Most Tortured Syntax Award for the day.  Congrats!  Smiley


Okay, you've been speaking English up till now.  What makes you think that a disability would disqualify one from belonging to a coven?  What exactly do you mean by disability?

As for the question, anyone who is not initiated and sworn into a BTW coven is neo-Wiccan.  Or McWiccan.  Or not Wiccan at all.  Depending.

Wow.  I wasn't expecting such a rude response. A million pardons if my OP was so difficult to read and comprehend. I haven't been feeling very well today, so perhaps my post wasn't a coherent as it could have been.

What I was trying to ask was whether or not a person can worship in the traditional ways without belonging to a traditional coven. When I mentioned a disability that would prohibit someone from joining a coven I was referring, specifically, to myself - I am Agoraphobic. There are days when I cannot get out of the house, let alone drive countless miles from my home to attend a meet. To my knowledge there is only one BTW coven in the Northern region of Georgia and it's forty miles from where I live. I cannot commit to dedicating myself to a group that I may not be able to give 110% to in terms of my time. While I know this would not disqualify me from belonging to a coven, it's certainly the main reason why I do not belong to one.

I don't have a problem with the term "Neo-Wiccan", save for the negative stigma that comes with it. Neo-Wicca is one of those terms that leads to other, less pleasant ones such as "Fluffy Bunny", "McWiccan", etc. I find those terms to be insulting and unnecessary based on the sole fact that one has not been properly initiated into a BTW coven. Even the most respectable Wiccan authors make exceptions for those who, for whatever reason, cannot join a coven. If someone does nothing but read SRW or talks about "White Lighters", then yes - I suppose you could place them under the umbrella of "McWiccan" or Fluffy Bunny.

So I guess for now I'll have to stick with the label of being a Neo-Wiccan, unless someone from a Trad coven wants to make a house call and train me for initiation.  Tongue
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« Reply #4: July 17, 2007, 02:29:04 am »

I find those terms to be insulting and unnecessary based on the sole fact that one has not been properly initiated into a BTW coven.

I don't see why it should be insulting.  I think that the point of making a distinction between Wiccan/Neo-Wiccan is that you simply cannot be a Wiccan in the BTW sense without initiation.  Initiation is a part of the tradition and is not optional.  So if you haven't been initiated, you're something different from Wiccan, regardless of the circumstances.  Hence the need for a term like Neo-Wiccan.

Now, if you think the term Neo-Wiccan has absorbed some negative connotations, maybe a new descriptor is needed.  That doesn't invalidate the difference, though.

ETA: OK, I think I misread your post, replying again. Smiley
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« Reply #5: July 17, 2007, 02:34:20 am »

I don't have a problem with the term "Neo-Wiccan", save for the negative stigma that comes with it. Neo-Wicca is one of those terms that leads to other, less pleasant ones such as "Fluffy Bunny", "McWiccan", etc. I find those terms to be insulting and unnecessary based on the sole fact that one has not been properly initiated into a BTW coven.

Alright, so my last post was based on a misunderstanding of what you said.  I see now that you weren't objecting to the use of Neo-Wiccan per se.  I have to say though, in my limited experience, fluffiness has little to do with coven (non-)membership and everything to do with willful ignorance.  But, again, my experience is not that broad.
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« Reply #6: July 17, 2007, 06:53:55 am »

What makes you think that a disability would disqualify one from belonging to a coven?  What exactly do you mean by disability?

I would argue, actually, that it's a fairly common problem.  I don't know how common it is specifically with Trad Wiccans, but get burned a few times ....

There's a COMMON feeling that you can't come into circle if you've 1) taken medication of any kind (unless it's *herbal*, of course) 2) bring anything *manmade* into circle (hearing aids, wheelchairs, glasses ...)

And that's not even getting into the "Wicca is for the people that look good naked" group, which definitely exists.  Again, might not be your personal experience, but I know I've run into them.  Might be trad, might not .. I never cared enough to find out.
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« Reply #7: July 17, 2007, 07:30:54 am »

Wow.  I wasn't expecting such a rude response. A million pardons if my OP was so difficult to read and comprehend. I haven't been feeling very well today, so perhaps my post wasn't a coherent as it could have been.

The Most Tortured Syntax Award was for a single sentence.  Calm down; we all do it.  My inner English teacher just decided to surface there.  I did not intend to offend, and I'm sorry if I did so.


What I was trying to ask was whether or not a person can worship in the traditional ways without belonging to a traditional coven.

I got that, and you know the answer is no. 

When I mentioned a disability that would prohibit someone from joining a coven I was referring, specifically, to myself - I am Agoraphobic. There are days when I cannot get out of the house, let alone drive countless miles from my home to attend a meet. To my knowledge there is only one BTW coven in the Northern region of Georgia and it's forty miles from where I live. I cannot commit to dedicating myself to a group that I may not be able to give 110% to in terms of my time. While I know this would not disqualify me from belonging to a coven, it's certainly the main reason why I do not belong to one.

Perhaps your original statement could have been more clear.  I will say that being unable to attend meetings, be they esbats, sabbats or other meetings, would make it unlikely that any BTW would be able to initiate you.  OTOH, if you were Called, you wouldn't let any disability stop you, and the coven that wanted you would make accommodation.

No reputable coven of any sort and certainly no BTW of which I have ever heard would refuse membership to someone solely on the grounds of a mobility challenge or a limitation such as agoraphobia, and if we discriminated against people because they were less than beautiful the faith would have died out years ago.  You've seen pictures of Gerald Gardner; does he look like he would have been Adonis skyclad?  Of course not... and ogling the neighbors isn't the reason for worshipping skyclad.


I don't have a problem with the term "Neo-Wiccan", save for the negative stigma that comes with it. Neo-Wicca is one of those terms that leads to other, less pleasant ones such as "Fluffy Bunny", "McWiccan", etc. I find those terms to be insulting and unnecessary based on the sole fact that one has not been properly initiated into a BTW coven.

Fluff Bunny and McWiccan don't refer to those who are simply not BTW.  They refer to the willfully ignorant and the shallow.  Neo-Wicca refers to those who are not initiated into BTW, some of which have put together wonderful new religions based almost entirely on the inspiration of BTW rather than the thing itself.  Their creativity and profound understanding of the gods is often awe-inspiring.


Even the most respectable Wiccan authors make exceptions for those who, for whatever reason, cannot join a coven.
 

I think I'd dispute the term "make exceptions" -- rational adults allow that not only is it impossible for everyone to become BTW, it would be wildly inappropriate.  The BTW are not a religion; we are a sworn and dedicated order of priests.  The so-called "Neo-Wicca" are the general population, and not new at all.  We are rarely called as ministers, so the Christian pattern of instructed pastors and uninstructed congregation is not exactly the same.  But there is some parallel.


If someone does nothing but read SRW or talks about "White Lighters", then yes - I suppose you could place them under the umbrella of "McWiccan" or Fluffy Bunny.

Yup.

So I guess for now I'll have to stick with the label of being a Neo-Wiccan, unless someone from a Trad coven wants to make a house call and train me for initiation.  Tongue

We don't look for seekers; that's why we call them seekers.  If you were supposed to be BTW you would be trying to find a way to make it work. 

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« Reply #8: July 17, 2007, 07:34:41 am »

I would argue, actually, that it's a fairly common problem.  I don't know how common it is specifically with Trad Wiccans, but get burned a few times ....

There's a COMMON feeling that you can't come into circle if you've 1) taken medication of any kind (unless it's *herbal*, of course) 2) bring anything *manmade* into circle (hearing aids, wheelchairs, glasses ...)

And that's not even getting into the "Wicca is for the people that look good naked" group, which definitely exists.  Again, might not be your personal experience, but I know I've run into them.  Might be trad, might not .. I never cared enough to find out.

I'm gobsmacked.  That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.  Like we're going to tell a member not to take their dilantin, asthma meds or digitalis or lithium???  My inhaler rides in my cup during every rite, just in case, and the box of tissues is always under the altar.  If I don't have my glasses, I can't read, and sometimes that's a necessity. 

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« Reply #9: July 17, 2007, 07:56:33 am »

I'm gobsmacked.  That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.  Like we're going to tell a member not to take their dilantin, asthma meds or digitalis or lithium???  My inhaler rides in my cup during every rite, just in case, and the box of tissues is always under the altar.  If I don't have my glasses, I can't read, and sometimes that's a necessity. 



hey, I never said I was talking about *smart* people!

But it is things I've heard about.  Annoyingly, one of the places that did that?  their high priest was routinely high on pot - at public ritual, on public ground, where children were present.  But I've heard about it in other places too.

It's UGLY. Sad
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« Reply #10: July 17, 2007, 08:29:05 am »

As for the question, anyone who is not initiated and sworn into a BTW coven is neo-Wiccan.  Or McWiccan.  Or not Wiccan at all.  Depending.

A Note to the original poster, BTWs are about the only people around with such a limited view who is and who isn't Wiccan. (Even so, their current position on this is much more liberal than the position the average BTW took in the 1960s and early 1970s.)

Non-BTWs often divide the Wicca up something like this:

British Tradition Wicca -- the original traditions (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, and their immediate offshoots): all are coven-oriented and require initiation into their particular tradition.  Has specific deities whose names are secret. Very secretive about specific beliefs and practices.

Traditional Wicca -- Wicca based strongly upon what has become public knowledge about BTW. More often than not coven-oriented and initiatory.  Usually has specific deities but some do the all Gods are One, all Goddesses are one thing. Amount of secrecy varies but is normally less than BTW.

Feminist Wicca -- In the 1970s, some feminists took what they had heard about BTW and trad Wicca and ran with it. Feminist Wicca generally stresses the Goddess/Lady, political activism, and is often only open to women. Some groups are very coven-oriented and initiatory, others are very open membership-wise. Generally not very secretive about specific beliefs and practices.

Neo-Wicca -- Some say it started with Cunningham's Solitary Wicca, but I say it started with the flood of books on Wicca in the early 1990s that took the Traditional Wiccan religion and rewrote it taking all the stuff that might offend more conservative types (or get teens in trouble) out: the stress on sex and death (for example: you don't find the Great Rite -- even in symbolic form -- in most forms of Neo-Wicca). Some forms of Neo-Wicca even try to drop magic. Most have a Goddess and a God and subscribe to the All Gods are one God/All Goddesses are one Goddess belief. Less likely to be coven oriented. Very unlikely to require initiation. Generally non-secretive about beliefs and practices.
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« Reply #11: July 17, 2007, 08:34:28 am »

I'm gobsmacked.  That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.  Like we're going to tell a member not to take their dilantin, asthma meds or digitalis or lithium???  My inhaler rides in my cup during every rite, just in case, and the box of tissues is always under the altar.  If I don't have my glasses, I can't read, and sometimes that's a necessity. 

This is common sense -- unfortunately, I know of a number of groups that seem to feel that there is no place in their religion for people with physical problems or long-term illnesses. I once was barred from a public circle (ran by a Traditional Wiccan coven) in San Antonio because I wore glasses. Glasses ruin the energy flow, you know. I've seen people missing a hand or leg told that the Gods will not accept them as members because they can't do X.
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« Reply #12: July 17, 2007, 01:24:42 pm »

A Note to the original poster, BTWs are about the only people around with such a limited view who is and who isn't Wiccan. (Even so, their current position on this is much more liberal than the position the average BTW took in the 1960s and early 1970s.)

Thanks, Randall, for pointing this out.  I'm really glad that we've got BTW.  Their Tradition is rich in history, and I respect them very much.  I think they have every right to define wicca as BTW.  Heck, we already work with multiple definitions of "witch" and "pagan."  It is in deference to BTW that I call myself "eclectic Wiccan" on TC. 

However, if you met me at a general Pagan gathering, I'd identify myself as Wiccan because that's how I feel personally.  If I got to know you well enough, I might even say that I'm Traditional Wiccan since I'm an initiate in a coven.  However, I'd also tell you that my Tradition is not BTW; rather, it's based on the ideas that their founder set down; in this way, their founder is also my founder.  I could be seen as an illegitimate child, in a way--yet that idea doesn't bother me at all.

In a hundred years or so, history will decide whether I'm really Wiccan or not.  In the mean time, I'm fine with the confusion.

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« Reply #13: July 17, 2007, 02:24:28 pm »


No reputable coven of any sort and certainly no BTW of which I have ever heard would refuse membership to someone solely on the grounds of a mobility challenge or a limitation such as agoraphobia, and if we discriminated against people because they were less than beautiful the faith would have died out years ago. 

I think it might depend on the focus of the coven.  Many covens are mainly for worship and/or personal growth.  In that case, I can't see how a physical impairment would keep someone from being a member. 

However, some coven are formed for the purpose of, say, preparing initiates to hive.  If that's what your coven's focus is, then I can see how certain physical, mental, or emotional impairments might prevent a seeker from being accepted for membership in that specific coven.

I see your point that the refusal of membership would be about more than just the impairment itself (perhaps it would be more about the seeker's attitude towards his/her limitations), but to say that "No reputable coven of any sort...would refuse membership to someone solely on the grounds of a mobility challenge or a limitation..." is a pretty broad claim. 

Remember, there are always at least two sides.  If I were in charge of a coven that trains and encourages up & coming high priest/esses, I might decline to teach someone who cannot leave their house because I know that the structure and practices of my coven will not bear fruit for that person.  I would be operating from the belief that the seeker's niche was elsewhere and that they would surely find it.  For me, it would be an acknowledgement of my own limitations.  But the seeker may see it only as rejection, and that I refused them soley on the grounds of their challenges.

I need to be really clear here:  It's hard for me to imagine a reputable coven discriminating against someone for something that is beyond his or her control.  I'm not disagreeing with that sentiment; only with your absolute sureness--as if anyone who could cite an exception is just wrong or crazy.  My point is that such sure statements, even when based on underlying truth, are rarely helpful.





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« Reply #14: July 17, 2007, 03:50:54 pm »

Non-BTWs often divide the Wicca up something like this:

British Tradition Wicca
Traditional Wicca
Feminist Wicca
Neo-Wicca
I would add "Eclectic Wicca" to that list - between Traditional and Feminist if we're ordering it based on how much divergence there is from BTW.  I fancy - from things you've said elsewhere - that you'd think of that as part of what you mean by "Traditional", but what caught my attention was your characterization of it as "more often than not coven-oriented and initiatory".  That certainly applies to the traditional-in-tone but non-BTW trads like Georgian; it equally certainly doesn't apply to the solitaries that were a big growth area in the Wiccan religious family in the late '70s and the '80s (some of whom, IMO and from my observations, were more NeoWiccan than anything:  "all gods are one God", little magical content, elimination of most "sex & death" stuff) - with lots of people falling partway between those two examples.

Properly speaking, it should have come to be known as "Eclectic Witchcraft" since it drew considerably from religious Witchcraft traditions that, by and large, do not identify as Wiccan - most notably the Feri ideas and material found in Starhawk's work, and the Cochranist current, often as filtered through Doreen Valiente - as well as from publicly-available knowledge about BTW.  However, at the time when it was developing a distinct identity, the word of high controversy among neoPagans was "W/witch", with "Wicca" being less likely to stir up trouble; since - at that time - they were generally thought of as synonymous, the latter was most often used.  (I remember when it was usually called "North American Eclectic Wicca", on the supposition that it was a purely New World development - forgetting that Australia, among other non-NA places, is also New World.)  After a good quarter-century of such use, I very much doubt it can be corrected.

Hey, I'm getting better at explaining that without either including, or needing to cut, a lot of history detail!

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