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Author Topic: Asking permission?  (Read 7855 times)
Reona
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« Topic Start: August 07, 2007, 10:26:31 am »

I need some different opinions on this.

What do you think about the need to ask a person’s permission for doing a healing? Would it work without the person’s permission? Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill? Permissible depending on the situation and relationship?

This last weekend my Mother was admitted to the hospital for the second time in a few weeks. The first time was for blood clots and this time was for a reaction to the blood thinners. While I’m not hiding my Pagan religion base, I’m not exactly telling either. And she certainly knows nothing about the witchcraft. I’ve been slowly leading her toward it but if she caught the reference to The Cauldron that I used during the last spontaneous “religion” conversation we had then she didn’t react any. Should I bite the bullet and just ask?
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« Reply #1: August 07, 2007, 11:36:54 am »

What do you think about the need to ask a person’s permission for doing a healing? Would it work without the person’s permission? Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill? Permissible depending on the situation and relationship?

First, sorry to hear about your Mother's illness.  It's not easy seeing a parent in the hospital.  (((hugs)))

Personally, I don't do a healing unless I can obtain the person's consent first.   The only time I make an exception to this is when it's a true emergency involving someone who is not lucid enough to communicate and only if I know the person well enough to know if they'd want the help. 

There are people who may not want to have a healing done for any number of reasons.  For me, it's important to respect their right to decide this for themselves.  When I can't obtain permission or when a person does not want to be healed, I usually offer up a prayer that they and their loved ones be guided through the illness with as little suffering as possible.  Sometimes this is more useful than doing a healing. 

In the case of your Mother, I'd say just talk to her.  You don't need to go into long-winded explanations about your religious beliefs- now is not the time for that conversation.   Just let her know that you love about her and ask if she'd be okay if you said prayers for her speedy recovery.  Use her answer as your guideline on how to proceed. 
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« Reply #2: August 07, 2007, 02:14:14 pm »

I need some different opinions on this.

What do you think about the need to ask a person’s permission for doing a healing? Would it work without the person’s permission? Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill? Permissible depending on the situation and relationship?

This last weekend my Mother was admitted to the hospital for the second time in a few weeks. The first time was for blood clots and this time was for a reaction to the blood thinners. While I’m not hiding my Pagan religion base, I’m not exactly telling either. And she certainly knows nothing about the witchcraft. I’ve been slowly leading her toward it but if she caught the reference to The Cauldron that I used during the last spontaneous “religion” conversation we had then she didn’t react any. Should I bite the bullet and just ask?

I really think it depends on the situation...for me at least. I will pray for anyone; I would not go into anything "bigger" than that though, unless I either had permission or knew the person well enough to know that they would appreciate the help. Otherwise, I wouldn't do anything without their permission.
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« Reply #3: August 07, 2007, 03:20:43 pm »

I need some different opinions on this.

This last weekend my Mother was admitted to the hospital for the second time in a few weeks. The first time was for blood clots and this time was for a reaction to the blood thinners. While I’m not hiding my Pagan religion base, I’m not exactly telling either. And she certainly knows nothing about the witchcraft. I’ve been slowly leading her toward it but if she caught the reference to The Cauldron that I used during the last spontaneous “religion” conversation we had then she didn’t react any. Should I bite the bullet and just ask?

In your mother's case, I think I would just ask if she wanted you to pray for her, and let that be your guide.   Since you arent exactly comfortable discussing religious beliefs, just leave it a generic prayer concept. 

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« Reply #4: August 07, 2007, 05:28:51 pm »

What do you think about the need to ask a person’s permission for doing a healing? Would it work without the person’s permission? Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill? Permissible depending on the situation and relationship?

The whole idea of needing permission to do magic for someone seems to have come about from New Age and/or Wiccan sources in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Unless you have some reason to suspect that the person would not want you do do so, I see no need for permission for healing magic or healing prayers.

This asking permission bit often gets taken to extremes. I've actually been told by some neo-Wiccans that they would not give artificial respiration or heart message to someone they found dying of a heart attack unless he/she were conscious and gave permission as otherwise they would not know if he wanted to live or not and would not want to viol;ate his free will and make him live if he did not want to. I operate differently, I assume people want to live unless they have made it have clear that they do not and are of sound mind when saying they don't (e.g. if someone is suffering from depression and says they don't want to be taken to the hospital after a suicide attempt, I'd take them anyway).  I assume that people who are ill would welcome prayers, good thoughts, and healing energy unless they say they don't. I base my assumptions on my experience with people over the years, not with minor worries about violating their free will. 

On the other hand, someone I knew from Science Fiction fandom discovered he had and advanced case of Pancreatic cancer and specifically required that only those who were Christians or Jews pray for him. I respected his wishes. However, had he only requested prayers without the qualifier, I would have prayed to my Gods for him even though he was strongly Christian under the theory that help is help.
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« Reply #5: August 07, 2007, 05:49:48 pm »

Unless you have some reason to suspect that the person would not want you do do so, I see no need for permission for healing magic or healing prayers. <snip>

 I assume that people who are ill would welcome prayers, good thoughts, and healing energy unless they say they don't. I base my assumptions on my experience with people over the years, not with minor worries about violating their free will. 

I know it's come up before that Randall and I have some similarity of thought on this... And like Dania said earlier what I do depends on the situation and circumstance. Every sentence I try to start with 'generally I..' doesn't sound right. I've done things with and without permission, really does depend on the situation, and not just for healing.

Quote
On the other hand, someone I knew from Science Fiction fandom discovered he had and advanced case of Pancreatic cancer and specifically required that only those who were Christians or Jews pray for him. I respected his wishes. However, had he only requested prayers without the qualifier, I would have prayed to my Gods for him even though he was strongly Christian under the theory that help is help.

Although, Randall reminds me of a friend of mine who had cancer, and in his case, because I knew he had some very deeply held beliefs of his own, it was necessary, for me, to get his permission before doing anything... which he gave willingly and without restriction.
*shrugs*

As I said, for me it all depends on the situation, and for whatever reason, I needed his permission. For other people in other situations, I've done it without.
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« Reply #6: August 07, 2007, 05:57:25 pm »

This asking permission bit often gets taken to extremes. I've actually been told by some neo-Wiccans that they would not give artificial respiration or heart message to someone they found dying of a heart attack unless he/she were conscious and gave permission as otherwise they would not know if he wanted to live or not and would not want to viol;ate his free will and make him live if he did not want to. I operate differently, I assume people want to live unless they have made it have clear that they do not and are of sound mind when saying they don't (e.g. if someone is suffering from depression and says they don't want to be taken to the hospital after a suicide attempt, I'd take them anyway).  I assume that people who are ill would welcome prayers, good thoughts, and healing energy unless they say they don't. I base my assumptions on my experience with people over the years, not with minor worries about violating their free will.

I operate under this same theory. I think that most people want to live, and unless they specify otherwise, I'm going to assume that's the case. And unless I *know* that the person would not appreciate certain types of healing work (ie. a  healing spell if I know they are very against the practice of magic) I tend to assume that anything I can do to help would be appreciated. I still would ask permission before doing anything more than a simple prayer or spell (I wouldn't ask permission before putting someone's name in my "healing box" on my altar) because it just feels like the right thing to do.

When I was in school I was actually taught not to help anyone unless I had their permission, and if they were unconscious or otherwise couldn't give permission I wasn't supposed to do anything unless they were in extreme danger or their heart wasn't beating, not breathing, etc. The reason for this was, as it was explained to me, people are entirely too sue happy and if they can find someone to blame and get money from, they will. Unfortunately, this is all too often the case nowadays but I thought there were good Samaritan laws that protected against this sort of thing.
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« Reply #7: August 07, 2007, 06:13:16 pm »

Unless your mother would have a problem with you doing a healing spell for her, then shouldn't have to ask her permission to perform said spell. You should only ask people if you aren't sure if they would consent to the spell!
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« Reply #8: August 07, 2007, 06:16:09 pm »

The reason for this was, as it was explained to me, people are entirely too sue happy and if they can find someone to blame and get money from, they will. Unfortunately, this is all too often the case nowadays but I thought there were good Samaritan laws that protected against this sort of thing.

Fortunately, many states (even Texas) have "Good Samaritan" laws now that prevent or greatly limit such lawsuits.
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« Reply #9: August 07, 2007, 06:22:05 pm »

I need some different opinions on this.

What do you think about the need to ask a person’s permission for doing a healing? Would it work without the person’s permission? Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill? Permissible depending on the situation and relationship?

This last weekend my Mother was admitted to the hospital for the second time in a few weeks. The first time was for blood clots and this time was for a reaction to the blood thinners. While I’m not hiding my Pagan religion base, I’m not exactly telling either. And she certainly knows nothing about the witchcraft. I’ve been slowly leading her toward it but if she caught the reference to The Cauldron that I used during the last spontaneous “religion” conversation we had then she didn’t react any. Should I bite the bullet and just ask?

Perhaps you could just ask, but there are other things you can do....like praying, petition magic, or anything that you feel is heartfelt but not infringing on free will. I think that might be easiest since you do feel the way you do about having consent, seems you'd rather not do a healing without it. Other than that, I'm kinda torn the way you seem to be when it comes to the issue,lol.

Bright Blessings.
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« Reply #10: August 07, 2007, 07:57:03 pm »

I need some different opinions on this.

What do you think about the need to ask a person’s permission for doing a healing? Would it work without the person’s permission? Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill? Permissible depending on the situation and relationship?

I ask, in part because I have a number of close friends who have complex medical issues, and the thing they initially mention may not be the thing that actually needs fixing. Or there may be some other complication (for example, both the people I'm closest to with medical issues have auto-immune aspects to their health issues: sending more energy tends to make them worse.)

It also gives the person a chance to say yes or no. Yes, they may well want to live (and want to be well), but given the option, my *other* values (of getting consent for stuff I want to do that affects a specific other person) come into play.

It's the same theory as giving someone a hug: they may love me, they may normally want to hug me, but there may be a particular circumstance that day that I don't know about (a bad sunburn, achy bones, whatever) that mean a hug is going to hurt them. Leaping upon them and hugging them would be bad - asking, or doing the non-verbal equivalent (opening the arms, and letting them take the first step) avoids that.

In the case you mention with your mother - I'd go for "Mom, I'd like to pray for/send some good thoughts/send energy your way [depending on what wording would make sense to her]. Is there anything specific you would like me to focus on?"

It gives her a chance to say now, and it gives her a chance to tell you exactly what she's most wanting. Seems fair.
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« Reply #11: August 08, 2007, 12:12:41 am »

I need some different opinions on this.

What do you think about the need to ask a person’s permission for doing a healing? Would it work without the person’s permission? Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill? Permissible depending on the situation and relationship?

This last weekend my Mother was admitted to the hospital for the second time in a few weeks. The first time was for blood clots and this time was for a reaction to the blood thinners. While I’m not hiding my Pagan religion base, I’m not exactly telling either. And she certainly knows nothing about the witchcraft. I’ve been slowly leading her toward it but if she caught the reference to The Cauldron that I used during the last spontaneous “religion” conversation we had then she didn’t react any. Should I bite the bullet and just ask?

ETA: Ack! My post was lost and it's definitely bedtime. So lemme sum up: So long as someone is seeking treatment and wouldn't have a problem with people from various religious backgrounds praying for them or sending them good thoughts or good 'vibes', then I don't think there's any sort of ethical imperative to make sure that they're ok with your doing a healing ritual.

But I say that as someone who doesn't approach magic as something that can take away someone's free will so my personal ethical position takes that into consideration.
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« Reply #12: August 08, 2007, 10:12:58 am »

The whole idea of needing permission to do magic for someone seems to have come about from New Age and/or Wiccan sources in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Unless you have some reason to suspect that the person would not want you do do so, I see no need for permission for healing magic or healing prayers. -snip- This asking permission bit often gets taken to extremes...

Thank you, Randall and everyone who answered me. That was exactly what I needed clarified. I didn’t know if I was looking at a Craft edict or a Wiccan law. It’s terribly hard to separate the two when studying.

I always held the belief that a person would generally wish to live and would welcome help from a benevolent source. While I would think to ask if I suspected any reason why such an action would be unwelcome, such as views on magic, I don’t think my Mother falls under this category and I do know she is seeking treatment and wishes to live. But, after some thought I think I might still ask her permission because we are close and this would probably be a perfect chance to blow the lid off this whole Pagan deal.
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« Reply #13: August 08, 2007, 10:17:49 am »

But, after some thought I think I might still ask her permission because we are close and this would probably be a perfect chance to blow the lid off this whole Pagan deal.

is this REALLY the best time to be doing that, though?

I understand not wanting to live in secrecy, but it sounds like your mom is already going through a lot.  Do you want to risk adding to her burdens right now?

I'm an outsider, so I don't know.  I'm just saying .. think about it, and your reasons for wanting to *come out* to her.  And if now is really a good time.
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« Reply #14: August 08, 2007, 10:53:44 am »

is this REALLY the best time to be doing that, though?

I understand not wanting to live in secrecy, but it sounds like your mom is already going through a lot.  Do you want to risk adding to her burdens right now?

I'm an outsider, so I don't know.  I'm just saying .. think about it, and your reasons for wanting to *come out* to her.  And if now is really a good time.

No one in this house is religious besides me and I can’t see my Mother reacting badly to anything I tell her. She’s the type of person that brings new meaning to “water off a duck’s back.” Seriously, I can’t see my Mother caring about what I do besides telling me not to shave the cats and don’t summon any demons unless they can clean the house. Religion is such a non-issue for my family that I’d probably have more trouble getting her to take me seriously than keeping her from freaking out. But, I shall think about it.
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