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Author Topic: Asking permission?  (Read 7856 times)
Underwater Thing
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« Reply #15: August 08, 2007, 11:38:45 am »



I'm sorry to hear about your mother.
I've never really felt the need to ask permission.
But that's just me.
I believe it's entirely up to your own beliefs.
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SunflowerP
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« Reply #16: August 08, 2007, 05:03:35 pm »

Thank you, Randall and everyone who answered me. That was exactly what I needed clarified. I didn’t know if I was looking at a Craft edict or a Wiccan law. It’s terribly hard to separate the two when studying.
Or somebody extrapolating the ideas to an extreme.

In the original form in which I ran across it, the "violation of free will" issue was purely related to religious right of conscience:  just as some Pagan folks might be uncomfortable with Christian prayer being offered on their behalf, so might some non-Pagans be uncomfortable with magic and/or with prayers to gods other than their own.  IMO, that's perfectly reasonable.

The idea that something like healing in and of itself might violate their free will came along later, and I don't think much of a lot of the "reasoning" I've heard intended to back it up.  This is the territory of, "If they're sick, it must be because their spirits have chosen to be sick for the lessons they'll learn from it," (definitely more a New Age concept than a neoPagan one) and of refusing to act to prevent a rape because doing so would violate the rapist's free will.  In my books, frankly, this is simply an attempt to evade ever having to take responsibility, by redefining terms so that the responsibility is always someone else's.

As for "Craft edicts" and "Wiccan laws" - pretty much no such thing.  I've often heard folks from the BTW trads say, "A witch's conscience is her own," and even within a given trad, there is no central authority.  Outside of lineaged tradition, this applies even more strongly.  There's a point at which, say, Sine might tell you you're not Wiccan, but it won't be because you're not obeying edicts, it'll be because you haven't undergone what, by her definitions, is necessary to make a Wiccan (i.e., lineage initiation).  There's a different point at which I might say, "That doesn't seem Wiccan to me," but I wouldn't be saying you're a disobedient Wiccan, I'd be saying that "Wiccan" was, in my view (which I can provide a buttload of supporting evidence for, but which I can't possibly enforce) a poor way to describe your freely-chosen and otherwise wholly legitimate path.

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« Reply #17: August 08, 2007, 05:13:39 pm »

In my books, frankly, this is simply an attempt to evade ever having to take responsibility, by redefining terms so that the responsibility is always someone else's.

Exactly. It the same type of "personal responsibility" nonsense I hear from extreme conservatives to avoid business/government responsibility for all ills. It has more to do with avoiding responsibilities by always having them be someone else's responsibility (generally the victim) than anything else.
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« Reply #18: August 08, 2007, 05:50:28 pm »

As for "Craft edicts" and "Wiccan laws" - pretty much no such thing.

I was only using those words to differentiate between the possible origins of the idea. I didn’t know what else to call them. Lol!
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« Reply #19: August 09, 2007, 02:37:13 am »

You know, if you said she would be willing to agree to you putting her in your prayers, I can't see how doing a healing would be any different.  That's just me though, I look at it as each action in a religion/way of thinking has an equivilent action in another religion.  I dunno tho...
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« Reply #20: August 09, 2007, 05:41:55 am »

You know, if you said she would be willing to agree to you putting her in your prayers, I can't see how doing a healing would be any different.  That's just me though, I look at it as each action in a religion/way of thinking has an equivilent action in another religion.  I dunno tho...

While a prayer and a healing (and even a spell) can all be the same thing in some paradigms, this isn't always so.  A prayer for health, a spell for health, and a healing ritual, can all be different depending on how they are thought of and performed.  My dad will accept prayers and healings, since they accord with his version of Christianity, and he will accept certain FN concepts of healing from experience, but I would never perform a spell for him, for healing or anything else.

Absent

PS - Ken, please use the quote function when replying.  The board is set up to make this as easy as possible, and it is a rule here.
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« Reply #21: August 09, 2007, 10:47:47 am »

You know, if you said she would be willing to agree to you putting her in your prayers, I can't see how doing a healing would be any different.

Now see, that wording would probably create more of a “huh?” response than saying I wanted to do a healing or at least give her some energy. There isn’t a religious bone in her body and as far as she knows neither have I. I’d probably shock her worse if I told her I was following Christianity. The real revelation in this situation will not be that I’m interested in Pagan religion and Witchcraft but how seriously I’m now studying it.
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« Reply #22: August 09, 2007, 10:52:45 am »



Thresher, please remember to use the quote function, it is required. http://www.ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=1161.0
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« Reply #23: August 09, 2007, 10:54:44 am »

Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill?


Does your mum want to get better?  If she does, I fail to see how an attempt to heal her would be against her free will.
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« Reply #24: August 09, 2007, 12:40:49 pm »

The idea that something like healing in and of itself might violate their free will came along later, and I don't think much of a lot of the "reasoning" I've heard intended to back it up.  This is the territory of, "If they're sick, it must be because their spirits have chosen to be sick for the lessons they'll learn from it," (definitely more a New Age concept than a neoPagan one) and of refusing to act to prevent a rape because doing so would violate the rapist's free will.  In my books, frankly, this is simply an attempt to evade ever having to take responsibility, by redefining terms so that the responsibility is always someone else's.

Yep. It's trying to pass off responsibility and it's very much "blame the victim". I'm sorry, but everything bad that happens in life is NOT the karmic result of some wrong committed in this life, or in a past life that the person does not remember. Sometimes, the world just sucks. I try to help when I can.
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« Reply #25: August 09, 2007, 12:53:36 pm »

Yep. It's trying to pass off responsibility and it's very much "blame the victim".

I so hate that mentality.

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« Reply #26: August 09, 2007, 01:09:09 pm »

I need some different opinions on this.

What do you think about the need to ask a person’s permission for doing a healing? Would it work without the person’s permission? Is it just wrong on the bases of taking away that person’s freewill? Permissible depending on the situation and relationship?

This last weekend my Mother was admitted to the hospital for the second time in a few weeks. The first time was for blood clots and this time was for a reaction to the blood thinners. While I’m not hiding my Pagan religion base, I’m not exactly telling either. And she certainly knows nothing about the witchcraft. I’ve been slowly leading her toward it but if she caught the reference to The Cauldron that I used during the last spontaneous “religion” conversation we had then she didn’t react any. Should I bite the bullet and just ask?

I also believe in obtaining permission Before doing any spell or prayer.  However, what about sending "healing energy" in her directions.
Im sorry your Mother is ill and I hope she gets better and stronger soon.

Blessed Be
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« Reply #27: August 09, 2007, 05:12:01 pm »

I also believe in obtaining permission Before doing any spell or prayer.  However, what about sending "healing energy" in her directions.

You believe in obtaining permission for spells, but not for 'energy'?
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« Reply #28: August 09, 2007, 06:12:03 pm »

When I was in school I was actually taught not to help anyone unless I had their permission, and if they were unconscious or otherwise couldn't give permission I wasn't supposed to do anything unless they were in extreme danger or their heart wasn't beating, not breathing, etc. The reason for this was, as it was explained to me, people are entirely too sue happy and if they can find someone to blame and get money from, they will. Unfortunately, this is all too often the case nowadays but I thought there were good Samaritan laws that protected against this sort of thing.

Unfortunately, a month or two ago, my mother's neighbor's cousin (who also lived in the same apartment complex as they do) fell and hit his head.  He had been drinking, and has some medical issues.  Well, they called the ambulance, because he had quite a bit of bleeding etc.  and they thought he needed to go to the hospital, but he refused to ride with his sister to the emergency room.  Now, mind you, he was clearly NOT acting normally.  So they called an ambulance. The ambulance came, but when he told them he didnt want to bother, they wouldnt take him in, although he was bleeding quite a bit from his head.  They said since he refused, their hands were tied.  Well, about 5 or 6 hours later, he was losing consciousness.  They took him to the emergency room.  he was totally unconscious by the time he got there.  Turned out he had internal bleeding, and by the next morning it was determined he was brain dead.  He died.  Now how much of this could have been avoided if the ambulance had taken him to the emergency room?  He obviously was suffering from head trauma, so didnt know what he was saying.  (to tell you how bad it was, one of the neighbors had to take a garden hose, and spray down the outside wall for several minutes to get all the dried blood off from where he had hit it the next day! I know, because I watched him)  Just because he was able to talk, doesnt mean he was thinking coherently.  There was obvious, very visible evidence, and the family was wanting him to go.  Yet they refused, because they could have been sued!   Roll Eyes   

Several years ago, we went through something similar with my mother, who is a very brittle type 1 diabetic.  She had a low blood sugar incident, and was in insulin shock, so we called the ambulance.   She was very much out of it, but when she refused to go, they were going to just leave her there!  We pointed out that she was obviously not in her right mind, and so they grudgingly took her in, because one of them had seen one case of insulin shock where a person behaved that way! 

Gina
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« Reply #29: August 09, 2007, 06:40:50 pm »

Unfortunately, a month or two ago, my mother's neighbor's cousin (who also lived in the same apartment complex as they do) fell and hit his head.  He had been drinking, and has some medical issues.  Well, they called the ambulance, because he had quite a bit of bleeding etc.  and they thought he needed to go to the hospital, but he refused to ride with his sister to the emergency room.  Now, mind you, he was clearly NOT acting normally.  So they called an ambulance. The ambulance came, but when he told them he didnt want to bother, they wouldnt take him in, although he was bleeding quite a bit from his head.  They said since he refused, their hands were tied.  Well, about 5 or 6 hours later, he was losing consciousness.  They took him to the emergency room.  he was totally unconscious by the time he got there.  Turned out he had internal bleeding, and by the next morning it was determined he was brain dead.  He died.  Now how much of this could have been avoided if the ambulance had taken him to the emergency room?  He obviously was suffering from head trauma, so didnt know what he was saying.  (to tell you how bad it was, one of the neighbors had to take a garden hose, and spray down the outside wall for several minutes to get all the dried blood off from where he had hit it the next day! I know, because I watched him)  Just because he was able to talk, doesnt mean he was thinking coherently.  There was obvious, very visible evidence, and the family was wanting him to go.  Yet they refused, because they could have been sued!   Roll Eyes   

Several years ago, we went through something similar with my mother, who is a very brittle type 1 diabetic.  She had a low blood sugar incident, and was in insulin shock, so we called the ambulance.   She was very much out of it, but when she refused to go, they were going to just leave her there!  We pointed out that she was obviously not in her right mind, and so they grudgingly took her in, because one of them had seen one case of insulin shock where a person behaved that way! 

Gina

::shudders:: both of those things are horrible; but if either one of them was underage they would have been taken no matter *what* was (or wasn't) wrong with them, and no matter what they said. They'll take a 17 year old with nothing wrong with them but with freaked out parents, who doesn't want to go, and they'll try their darndest to forcibly make them go. But they won't take a person with *obvious* brain damage who's family wants him to go, and he doesn't. How twisted is that??
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