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Author Topic: WWPD: What Would Pagans Do?  (Read 14243 times)
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« Topic Start: August 14, 2007, 03:59:34 am »

Yeah, I know, what a rip-off, but, really I've heard enough Christian commentary on the subject I'm about to present, so I want some other informed opinions.

Over the weekend I spoke to a friend who has been studying Wicca and witchcraft for about a year. I've known her for about 3 years. When I first met her she had some major self-esteem issues, constantly putting herself down, getting involved in bad relationships, putting up with a lot of crap, i.e.- cheating, mental and physical abuse, alcohol and drug abuse, self-involved, narcissistic, selfish behavior- all because she felt she couldn't do any better.

Being a survivor of much the same treatment, I could empathize with her. She often came to me during her very bad moments, as much for understanding as advice. While talking one night she asked me how I overcame what she was going through. I told her my spirituality played the biggest part. Though I don't often discuss my beliefs with others, I eventually told her that I was a pagan- a witch. This information I trust with very few people, simply because of the prejudice that is still very real here. My main reason for this is because of my son. He's not old enough yet to make any sort of religious choice, so I refrain from involving him too much in any one religion. Once he is old enough to ask questions and understand, then we will broach the subject, but for now I am happy to let him go to church as well as let him experience nature and the Goddess in an innocent way.

Back to my friend now. Over the past few months I had noticed a change in her. When she first began exploring paganism, meditating, learning about Goddess cultures, self-empowerment, magick and ritual, she really blossomed. She became more confident, removed herself from harmful situations and began focusing more on her own needs. She no longer felt the need to have a man in her life to justify her own worth as a person. She became her own person. As she put it, the past year had been the happiest she could remember.

I hadn't heard from her for several weeks, when suddenly she called last week. She said she had something to tell me, but was afraid I would think bad of her. I assured her I would not. She then tells me that she had been seeing a man who was a Christian, a preacher's son actually. Though he didn't go to church every Sunday, was living a "sinful" life, he still had very strong Christian views. When she brought up the subject of witchcraft in a conversation, she said he told her it was evil and of the devil and he would have nothing to do with someone involved with it.

I asked her how she had dealt with this and she told me she hadn't told him anything about her "secret". Out of fear he would discover her secret, she had also gotten rid of her pagan books, her BOS, her tarot cards, everything pagan related. I asked her if she was really comfortable doing this and she said for his love it was worth it, so I said no more. She then tells me she had basically been living with him for the past month, and had recently attended church with him to meet his parents. Her hopes were that this was a sign that he intended for their relationship to become serious, but she was still worried. She wanted me to meet him, just to see what sort of vibes I got from him, because she said she trusted my intuition about people.

I met with them this past weekend. They had a BBQ and invited over a few friends and their families. I brought my son along so he could see my friend's children. Later he and my friend's son came to me and asked if it was okay if he spent the night and went to church with them. My friend said it was no problem, they'd be happy to take him along. I had my worries, so I took her aside and asked her about the church. She assured me it was fine, that my son would be okay. I had let him spend the night before, so I trusted her with him.

The next afternoon my friend called and said she would drop my son off at my house. Since my BF and I were already out and close to her home I told her that I would just stop by and pick him up. My friend became very nervous and said she would just meet me out somewhere. She then whispered that she had to talk to me. We met her at McDonald's and I noticed that none of her chidren had come along, which was odd. After my BF took my son to the playground, my friend sat down, near to tears, and told me what had happened.

The night before while watching a movie, there was a scene where a girl was having her tarot cards read. My son then announced to everyone that his momma had cards just like those. My friend said her BF asked what I did with the cards, and he said, what that lady on tv is doing. People come to our house so my momma can help them with her cards. (This is how I explained it to him.) She said her kids began talking about all the "cool" stuff at my house, my stones, crystals, cards, goddess art, etc. Her BF then pretty much interrogated her kids and my son. After the kids went to bed, my friend got the same interrogation. At first she admitted to nothing, but later told him that yes, I was a pagan. He informed her that she was endangering herself and her kids by associating with me. He wouldn't even let her kids come along that afternoon because of this. HER kids, and she went along with it. She also lied when he asked her if she had ever been involved with witchcraft.

I was just floored. I really didn't know what to say. This was supposed to be my friend. Now she was telling me all this, offering me up like a sacrificial lamb to his judgment without so much as a word in my defense, but even worse, not defending my son. She told me she still wanted to be friends, but she would have to sneak around now to see or call me, and ask that I not be mad at her.

I'm not so much mad as I am hurt by all this. I still consider her my friend, but I can see she has reverted back to her old ways, giving her own self up, pretending to be something she's not to placate the man she's with. She begged me to forgive her, not to cut her out of my life. Hopefully, in time her BF would learn to accept me, she said. How that will happen if she plans on sneaking around to see me I don't know, but she insists she will not give up on our friendship.

I've already decided that I won't subject my son to this anymore. He will not be put through that again. But what to do about this situation with my friend? Should I secretly remain friends with her? What would you do in a situation like this?
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« Reply #1: August 14, 2007, 07:40:26 am »


What are you getting out of this friendship?  Is it *worth it* to you to continue with such a thing?

Because it sounds to me like not only is she IN an abusive relationship, she's then transferring that abuse to other people .. and if you go along, in some ways you're enabling her.

That said, she's in an abusive relationship.  Anyone that tries to control her friends and her kids like that .. scary.  I can see wanting to be there for her.

If it were me, I'd be straight-up honest.  I'd tell her that this wasn't love, this was abuse.  That she was letting someone control her life in ways that relate much more to parent/child than lovers, and that you'd seen the pattern before with her.  That you didn't see a way for it to turn out well.  That you can't turn yourself off "for love".

Of course, I'd then accept that she'd flip out and never want to talk to me again. Cheesy  So I don't know if that's a good solution for you or not.
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« Reply #2: August 14, 2007, 08:20:53 am »

I've already decided that I won't subject my son to this anymore. He will not be put through that again. But what to do about this situation with my friend? Should I secretly remain friends with her? What would you do in a situation like this?

Ultimately, the decision has to be yours alone when it comes to who you associate with and call a friend. I personally would question the validity of the friendship though. It sounds like your friend is accepting whatever she can get as far as a relationship goes simply for the sake of having a relationship.

The other thing is, if your friend got rid of everything "Pagan" to hide it from this guy, then she has already begun the relationship with him cloaked in lies and secrets - Never a good thing for a relationship, and a good reason for a relationship to fail.
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« Reply #3: August 14, 2007, 08:23:28 am »

I've already decided that I won't subject my son to this anymore. He will not be put through that again. But what to do about this situation with my friend? Should I secretly remain friends with her? What would you do in a situation like this?

I think that depends on how much you care about her. If you think you need to be there for when this relationship crashes and burns, then don't cut her off completely. However, personally, I would tell her that you aren't into sneaking around to be friends and that as long as she is with a guy who is behaving like a jerk and is trying to force others to follow his religion, you probably will not be seeing nearly as much of her as you are not into hiding your friendships to appease fundie religious prejudices.
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« Reply #4: August 14, 2007, 08:26:47 am »

Because it sounds to me like not only is she IN an abusive relationship, she's then transferring that abuse to other people .. and if you go along, in some ways you're enabling her.

That's the one thing that I don't want to do, which, believe me, I have considered. I've struggled with this since Sunday, well really, since she first contacted me and explained the particulars of the relationship. Sunday was just a culmination of it all coming to an abrupt head.

Quote
That said, she's in an abusive relationship.  Anyone that tries to control her friends and her kids like that .. scary.  I can see wanting to be there for her.

That's what worries me most. My friend is mentally and emotionally of a delicate nature and has attempted suicide on more than one occasion, just within the few years I've known her. So, yes, I do want to be there for her, because I know that this is not something that will last, and with her fragile mental state, I'm afraid that this will be more than she can handle.

Quote
If it were me, I'd be straight-up honest.  I'd tell her that this wasn't love, this was abuse.  That she was letting someone control her life in ways that relate much more to parent/child than lovers, and that you'd seen the pattern before with her.  That you didn't see a way for it to turn out well.  That you can't turn yourself off "for love".

Of course, I'd then accept that she'd flip out and never want to talk to me again. Cheesy  So I don't know if that's a good solution for you or not.

This is my usual attitude that you just described, LOL Cheesy I'm a straight-forward type person, and not one to beat around the proverbial bush. If anything, being around her has taught me patience and tact when dealing with others. This, however just goes against everything I believe in. I've been trying to find a gentler way of dealing with this, but this whole thing is just so wrong! If this were anyone else I would have already said thanks, but no thanks and wished them a happy life. I don't want to desert her, but in the same instance I don't want to compromise myself and my beliefs for a relationship built on lies.

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« Reply #5: August 14, 2007, 08:35:52 am »

This is my usual attitude that you just described, LOL Cheesy I'm a straight-forward type person, and not one to beat around the proverbial bush. If anything, being around her has taught me patience and tact when dealing with others. This, however just goes against everything I believe in. I've been trying to find a gentler way of dealing with this, but this whole thing is just so wrong! If this were anyone else I would have already said thanks, but no thanks and wished them a happy life. I don't want to desert her, but in the same instance I don't want to compromise myself and my beliefs for a relationship built on lies.

There's also the possibility that cutting her off with honesty WILL help her .. even if it's not immediate, it might quicken the (inevitable, IMO) end of the relationship.

And .. I'm sorry, but I couldn't be friends with someone that wouldn't defend my son in that situation.  Heck with the fact that she wouldn't defend /you/ .. she left /your son/, a child you'd left in her care, out to dry.  Forget it.
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« Reply #6: August 14, 2007, 08:37:33 am »

What would you do in a situation like this?

I would honestly sit her down and tell her that you would not sneak around him and continue being friends with her. Like Randall said, if you're close with her, stay with her when the relationship crashes and burns.

I am a firm believer that to hide apart of yourself from the person you love is wrong. If someone truely loves you, they love -all- of you, not what is just 'right' and 'safe'. Maybe this man does love her, but he only loves her for the part she showed him, which wasn't all of herself.

Honestly, that was rude that that man would do that to your son. He had no right to interrogate your son like that. Makes me blood boil, to tell you the truth.  Angry
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« Reply #7: August 14, 2007, 09:34:31 am »

Yeah, I know, what a rip-off, but, really I've heard enough Christian commentary on the subject I'm about to present, so I want some other informed opinions.


I like most of the answers.  I'm married and I'm trying to think of what I've given up for my husband.  It certainly wasn't my religion or my choice of employment.  And I didn't give up anything to get him.  I think I may have mislead him a little on my housekeeping abilitiies, but other than that.  Paganism postdated marriage.  He put up with my experimentation into fundamentalism (as short as that was).  Everything we've given up (mostly tradeoffs to having children) we have decided together. 


Tell her the truth and how you feel about her not protecting your son, expect her to reject you and be available when everything falls apart.

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« Reply #8: August 14, 2007, 09:40:43 am »

There's also the possibility that cutting her off with honesty WILL help her .. even if it's not immediate, it might quicken the (inevitable, IMO) end of the relationship.

And .. I'm sorry, but I couldn't be friends with someone that wouldn't defend my son in that situation.  Heck with the fact that she wouldn't defend /you/ .. she left /your son/, a child you'd left in her care, out to dry.  Forget it.

This is true. I've always tried to be there for her, but I don't see any point in sneaking around to be someone's friend. It's not like I'm off my nut, jumping off the roof with a broom between my legs, ya know!

Honestly, I was blazing by the time she finished telling me about the "questions". She tried to assure me that her BF was nice, he just asked questions that my son thought were strange. Regardless, he had no business grilling my son for information. I told her if her BF had any more questions, to grow a pair and ask me instead of interrogating a child. I would be more than happy to answer his questions.

When we got home, I talked to my son about it. He's pretty much like me in the respect of telling things like they are. He said that he didn't like her BF asking him all those 'tupid questions, like had he ever been to church before, did he know what a Bible was, did he know who Jesus was, had I ever told him about God. My son finally got fed up with all the questions. When he asked my son if I did magic like Harry Potter, my son said, Well, DUH! My momma ain't 'tupid like you are. Harry Potter's not real.  Cheesy
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« Reply #9: August 14, 2007, 09:52:08 am »

I've already decided that I won't subject my son to this anymore. He will not be put through that again. But what to do about this situation with my friend? Should I secretly remain friends with her? What would you do in a situation like this?

I think you're very right not to put your son through more of this. The rest of it is more complicated.

In your place, I think I'd go for "I really don't feel comfortable having you sneak around behind his back: that's not the right way to build a new relationship, no matter *how* much I disagree with him. But if you ever do break up with him, you know where to find me, and I'll be here for you. Otherwise, unless he becomes okay with our friendship, it's best that I not be an issue between you."

Some of this depends, though - is this someone you'd see socially for any other reason (your kids go to the same school or anything like that.) If so, then modify.

No, it's not very nice for her - but she needs to decide if she's going to buy into his worldview (or set up their relationship that it really *is* okay for her to believe different things, not just get lip-service from him.) Going behind his back, on something she knows he feels strongly about, isn't doing anyone any favors. 
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« Reply #10: August 14, 2007, 09:52:42 am »


Personally I think it was wrong that she sold you and your son out, but I really can understand why she did it. She was scared. Probably downright terrified. An abusive relationship, even if it's only mentally abusive (which her relationship is and lets all hope it's not physically abusive as well!) will certainly do that to you. I can understand that kind of fear.

The fact that she told you about it immediately shows me that she in no way did it to hurt you. She really feels bad about it. When you're caught up in the moment like that, in fear, you do things that you think are wrong, or that you normally wouldn't do. (I've done a few things that I normally wouldn't do in situations like that). Selling you and your son out was probably the only option she saw at the moment. She cracked under the pressure; some people are very good at making people crack, and some people are not very shatterproof. I honestly don't think she even meant to do it.

My advice to you is, try to make her understand that she needs to get out of that relationship. Not just for herself, but for her children as well! Does she really want her children to be exposed to that sort of environment? Remind her of how happy she was when she was single, and studying witchcraft. Does she really think it's worth it and how will she be able to handle hiding?

Under no circumstances should you "sneak around" her BF to be friends with her. You'd be enabling her, most likely. If it comes down to that, just tell her "when you decide you've had enough you have my number." You can't afford to get dragged into her abuse as well.

((hugs)) good luck!
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« Reply #11: August 14, 2007, 09:57:33 am »

I like most of the answers.  I'm married and I'm trying to think of what I've given up for my husband.  It certainly wasn't my religion or my choice of employment.  And I didn't give up anything to get him.  I think I may have mislead him a little on my housekeeping abilitiies, but other than that.


Cheesy hehe... yeah, well, housekeeping is such an ambiguous subject. My version of clean may not be the same as someone else's. It's all left up to interpretation.

My ex was the type of guy who thought my tarot cards were evil and I invited evil spirits into the house, to torture him, of course.  Roll Eyes There was never any common ground with him. It was his way or the highway... so I gave him some gas money and showed him the street.

The guy I'm with now is great. I was honest with him about my beliefs, expecting the worst. He never even batted an eyelash. He just said, oh, okay. You still like Christmas though, right? I like Christmas... LOL Cheesy

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« Reply #12: August 14, 2007, 10:20:42 am »

Personally I think it was wrong that she sold you and your son out, but I really can understand why she did it. She was scared. Probably downright terrified.

Oh, she WAS terrified. She kept saying she just didn't know what else to do. She cried pretty much the whole time we were talking, and I just didn't have the heart to rail on her, even though I was pi**ed about my son. I know she meant it when she said she was sorry, but at the same time, it made me mad that she would let someone put her in a corner like that. I just wanted to shake her and yell, WAKE UP! It's not going to get any better!

I don't think the guy is a physical abuser. He seems more the type who feeds his ego by belittling others. Gets his jollies by pretending he's smarter than most, esp. females. Needless to say, he didn't like me from the start. I got, ya know, like opinions and stuff :p

All I know is that she's in for a rough ride if she doesn't come clean. It's already taking its toll on her. She's a nervous wreck. And she's already on psych drugs for depression and anxiety. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that she's back in the hospital again over all this. The stress will make her crack, I can already see it coming. Sad
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« Reply #13: August 14, 2007, 10:21:03 am »

In your place, I think I'd go for "I really don't feel comfortable having you sneak around behind his back: that's not the right way to build a new relationship, no matter *how* much I disagree with him. But if you ever do break up with him, you know where to find me, and I'll be here for you. Otherwise, unless he becomes okay with our friendship, it's best that I not be an issue between you."

Some of this depends, though - is this someone you'd see socially for any other reason (your kids go to the same school or anything like that.) If so, then modify.


These are my thoughts on the matter exactly. Sneaking about would be a no no, but being available later would be kind.

I would also add that since she is obviously not a strong person, if she gets more serious with this fellow you should  be prepared to be dumped as a friend by her. His views will become her views.  She may have been "toying" with paganism for awhile simply because you were involved.

She is what I would call a "water person", that is, she has no shape of her own, only conforms to the beliefs of whatever person she pours herself into.   I have known many people like this in my life.  I used to take it personally, or hope they would one day grow a backbone, but then I realized that is just who they are.

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« Reply #14: August 14, 2007, 10:31:35 am »

Oh, she WAS terrified. She kept saying she just didn't know what else to do. She cried pretty much the whole time we were talking, and I just didn't have the heart to rail on her, even though I was pi**ed about my son. I know she meant it when she said she was sorry, but at the same time, it made me mad that she would let someone put her in a corner like that. I just wanted to shake her and yell, WAKE UP! It's not going to get any better!

It is really difficult, especially when you feel like people *should be* stronger than that.

I can understand where she's coming from, but I can also understand you being pissed. I would be too. I think this is one of those situations where you can understand what's going on but at the same time, you cannot afford to deal with someone who is so weak. Her weakness is negatively impacting on you and your son, and you can't afford that.

All I know is that she's in for a rough ride if she doesn't come clean. It's already taking its toll on her. She's a nervous wreck. And she's already on psych drugs for depression and anxiety. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that she's back in the hospital again over all this. The stress will make her crack, I can already see it coming. Sad

*nods* I hate to say it but some people are just beyond help it seems. Like Lily said, they apparently WANT to be that way. they *want* to be what everyone wants them to be. It's frustrating...especially if you don't know whether she wants to break the cycle or not.
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Jessica A 47 16104 Last post January 09, 2008, 11:08:57 pm
by shawn
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