Things I Don't Get about the Pagan Community

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[HBPattskyn]

1. The lack of young, sexy, straight, (available), men

LOL -- my gay HP says the same thing, only insert "gay" instead of staright.  As a happily married woman, I feel like I see plenty of young sexy men of both orientations... of course I suppose sexy is subjective.  But since this isn't the dating game, I guess I've never minded much whether or not there were sexy males around.



-   2. Costumes (particularly crushed velvet and circlets)

I wear crushed velvet because I like velvet.  I have a velvet skirt I wear to work at least once a week.  I don't happen to have a velvet robe...yet.  But velvet is rather warm, so a velvet robe is nice to own for those outdoor rituals.

I wear a circlet in ritual (usually) because I'm the High Priestess and I've earned the right to do so. 


-   3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing

Well, somebody has to lead the group, right?  (Not universally true, the Reclaiming Tradition doesn't do high clergy... or really clergy at all and somehow they get stuff done.  Personally, I don't understand how... oh yeah, something about 8 hour meetings and committees, sub committees and sub-sub committees... :shakes head:  I still don't get it, but it works for them and that's all that matters.  I have a number of good friends who practice Reclaiming.)

-   4. Pagan books

Not sure what there is not to get here.  Some are good, some are bad, some are ugly.  One could say the same of religious books from any other faith.

-   5. Strange dirty old men

See above.

-   6. ‘Live Action Role Play’ geeks

I love LARPing... when I have time.  Only 24 hours in a day, after all... not that it has a darned thing to do with my religion, it's just a hobby, like guys who like to do the paintball thing or members of the SCA.  It's something to do on the weekend.

-   7. Meat eaters

Hmmm... I don't think Diana or Herne are vegetarians, dear.  Not to sound condescending, but there are plenty of hunter/meat eating Gods around.  In my coven, we make a point to give thanks for the sacrifice of the animals and plants we eat... and we do have one vegetarian who really doesn't get us meat eaters, either.

-   8. Crystals

Pretty.  Sparkly.  Energetic properties.  Great for focusing (or unfocusing/scrying.) 

-   9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’

LOL.  Go to a New Age convention.  You might find things to rave about, too. 
Seriously, though, to each their own; I don't have to agree with the white-light-peace-and-love types to argue that they have the right to their view that the Universe is a happy place and nothing bad will happen to them.  (Darn, I wish my glasses were that rose coloured!)

-   10. The constant complaining about Christianity

It's a reaction to the place many of us have come from.  I tolerate it in my students for a few months and then I suggest to them that they grow out of it and get on with their lives.  Many of us have been deeply hurt by our past... there simply comes a time to heal the wounds and move on.

-   11. Beards and long hair

Darn.  I love long hair.  Not so keen on beards, but my husband can't grow one anyway... but when his hair reaches his waist.... yum!   

Of course I know plenty of Pagans with short hair, too.  I'm sure you wear your hair the way that makes *you* happy, right?

-   12. The prevalence of people who need more exercise

That's a societal thing, not a Pagan thing.  We could all use a little more exercise... but frankly, I'm too busy dealing with my teenaged daughter, getting through school, working and trying to keep up on the house to enroll in that pilates class "just for fun".   I have to body of a goddess.  The Venus of Willendorf.  I *do* do my best to eat a balanced diet, but breakfast usually consists of a cup of coffee, which is really a terrible way to start the day (sans anything else.)


-       13. Swords

Well... in a coven, the sword is, typically, a symbol of the authority of the High Priestess and High Priest.  Of course my hubby, who isn't in a coven, just likes sharp pointy things (he's a chef, so that we have all KINDS of knives in the house).   Collecting blades is just a hobby.  Reinactors tend to do it, but other folks get into it too.

[rose]

I sure hope it's sarcasm.

i am particularly baffled by the tantra reference, as I hardly know any non-hindu who is not indopagan in some way who is versed in tantra, well or ill. And the indopagans are usually not all that strong on it either...nor am I, as it takes years of dedicated practice to get to anything like "well-versed".

[Collinsky]

  is kind to deserving children,

But not the undeserving ones. Little buggers. 

[aphroditespriest]

Hello, I'm Wren, I'm 22 from the UK. Ive been Pagan for seven years.
Not much to say really. Im happy to be here.
The following is a list of things I just seriously don’t get about the Pagan Community. I'd love some feedback.

CRINGE
-   1. The lack of young, sexy, straight, (available), men
-   2. Costumes (particularly crushed velvet and circlets)
-   3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing
-   4. Pagan books
-   5. Strange dirty old men
-   6. ‘Live Action Role Play’ geeks
-   7. Meat eaters
-   8. Crystals
-   9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’
-   10. The constant complaining about Christianity
-   11. Beards and long hair
-   12. The prevalence of people who need more exercise
-       13. Swords

I'm young sexy and straight!

[Jabberwocky]

You are discussing 'entry level' pagans...  the full blown self-actualized Pagan is stunningly beautiful, wealthy, well versed in Tantra, commands the universe, has attained eternal life, dresses smartly, is athletic, is most-probably a genius, is kind to deserving children, generous, extremely healthy, dashing, and loyal.

Heh.  For some reason that reminds me of one of my favourite quotes from another forum.

Initially, I had to learn that every chaos magician wasn't a globetrotting rock star with an eviscerating wit and impeccable fashion sense. Later, I had to learn that every chaos magician wasn't a basement-dwelling recluse with semen-crusted fingers and an unfinished "hypersigil" about nailing Julia from the coffee shop.

(Doc Checkmate)

[V23]

Initially, I had to learn that every chaos magician wasn't a globetrotting rock star with an eviscerating wit and impeccable fashion sense. Later, I had to learn that every chaos magician wasn't a basement-dwelling recluse with semen-crusted fingers and an unfinished "hypersigil" about nailing Julia from the coffee shop.

(Doc Checkmate)

My GOD I have to steal that . . . .

[ArlenedeWinter]

The majority of the ones I've read have been pretty shallow and most of what I have so far learnt about Paganism and spirituality has come through reading around the subject; books on nature, mythology, world religions, politics, history, science, etc. I just wish there were more specifically 'Pagan' books that explored issues in depth rather than skirt over circle casting without even questioning it.

Sneeywren, I find your cringes very amusing! I have had the same reactions to some of these things. As for the books, All books seem to be aimed at beginners. It is as if publishers cannot imagine a seasoned Pagan buying books, maybe because they don't. I am sure there are Pagans writing these things, but I have also found many Pagans in the UK, tend to love the party aspect and get lazy.  Occultists on the other hand are more academic and you can find works that are very deep and intellectually challanging.
But yes, so many books are a rehash of something published before. This isn't just in Paganism, though.

I think they do unfortunately. There seems to be a much higher incidence of these people in the Pagan community than anywhere else. Nothing wrong with them per se, just sad when I'm trying to find a sexy clean cut young man without long hair, beard and chain mail. (I'm talking about the sort of guy my mum would like to see me bring home) no offence intended

Attractive available men are in short supply everywhere. It is sad though because at your age there should be plenty. I think the type of man you looking for may not be hanging out in the dodgy velvet crowd. Your guy might not understand Pagans, maybe he is too urbane, ambitious, going for a career kind of guy. You might find him in venues that cater for mainstream types.
As for chain mail. Pagans tend to love history and alternate realities.

I find it difficult that earth-honouring Pagans can actively choose to eat meat as: conscious beautiful animals are farmed and killed to be on your dinner plate, the manufacture of fodder to feed livestock is a real threat to rainforest right now, and ultimately, we don't NEED to. Fine to eat animals if there's nothing else around, but with supermarkets stuffed full of food, we have an option not to support the meat industry.

I feel the same as you. I was a vegetarian for 10 years before my digestive enzymes disappeared, I became severely anemic and was told flat out by a naturopath that I had to eat meat to live. It has to do with blood types or something. Factory farms bother me a  lot. Al I can do is be conscious and careful that I get free range chickens without hormones and stuff like that.

Maybe you can make your own Pagan group and fill it with beautiful young people who don't eat meat and care about the planet. It may take a while, but I have formed my own groups in the past and it was very satisfying.

[Jabberwocky]

Occultists on the other hand are more academic.

We so aren't!  At least not necessarily.  Occultists are responsible for pretty much all the bad Knights Templar books around.  And the idea that watching Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom makes you an expert on Kali.

[redbaron998]

We so aren't!  At least not necessarily.  Occultists are responsible for pretty much all the bad Knights Templar books around.  And the idea that watching Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom makes you an expert on Kali.

True that, As a Knight Templar fan (Historically not Fictionally) I often find myself shaking my head at those books haha.

[Gypsywitch15]

  1. The lack of young, sexy, straight, (available), men
     The mother goddess doesn't exactly appeal to the above stated. My husband is young and sexy, and non pagan...we work it out 
 
  2. Costumes (particularly crushed velvet and circlets)
     Have you ever noticed when you wear a certain oufit, you just FEEL sexy, or confident?? I can't be a sex kitten in my jeans and t-shirts, and I can't evoke the mother goddess in stillettos and fishnets either. BUT when I put on a ceremonial robe, or dress, I FEEL like an earth worshipper, and can better get into the role of priestess VS. mommy, wife, or SrA Snuffy.

-   3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing
 All religions have clergy, paganism is no different

-   4. Pagan books
Elaborate

-   5. Strange dirty old men
Never encountered any in the decade I've been involved in paganism

-   6. ‘Live Action Role Play’ geeks
No idea.

-   7. Meat eaters
I didn't know you had to vegitarian to be a pagan. the earliest peoples on this planet were pagans and avid meat eaters. They hunted their prey, killed it, used every part they could off the animla and showed their respects. Mother nature, made us to be meat eaters. Doing so otherwise IMO, is going against that nature. Not eating the food she put here for us because its seen as "cruel" is ridiculous. Its called the food chain. She made that up too.

-   8. Crystals
Stones are pieces of the earth.

-   9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’
I consider those to be insecure with their own spirituality and feel the need to call out others to feel superior. Personally, I think its sick, and stupid. Grow up, ya know?

-   10. The constant complaining about Christianity
I never got this either, and I think its pointless. You can point out to the christians until you're blue in the face how every piece of their religion has its origins somewhere in paganism, and they won't care. But you know what? When you look at just about every other religion in the world, the root message is always the same " Be good, do good, be close to the divine" Of course we all have our own conception of the divine, but we all strive for it, just in different ways.

-   11. Beards and long hair
Dunno. I have long hair, but I'm a woman.

-   12. The prevalence of people who need more exercise
LOL...i like this. Couldn't tell ya. Probably from all the fatty red meat they're eating. Horrible non-pagan like, pagans!

-       13. Swords
They're compromising. hahaha.

[pheonixofthefire1]

Hi Wren,

I've been a Pagan most of my life maybe I can shed some light on the subject.
(forgive any errors in spelling or typos... I have the flu and motor skills are a mess)
Respose to subjects by number.  Those of you who are reading this other than Wren, should look at the very bottom of this to find correlating numbers to subjects.  This info may benefit you, also.

1.  In my circle I have quite a few.  Avaliablity however is not always there since they get snatched up so quickly.  But some of my boys love to wander, they just simply cant get enough with just one. 

2.  I dont know..... hmmmm.  I do know that we dont use them.  We tend to wear black as a means of protection but its not a must, I happen to have a multi coloried wardrobe.  And the only robe I use is one of Victorias Secret silky red ones for that special someone.  

3.  We use Chaos Magick, in its truest definition means "all encompasing" or diverse.  We dont belive we are totally good or totally evil more like a balance and each has his or her purpose here.  For all intents and purposes, I would be considered the "High Preistess"(but titles mean nothing to me).  Because of my bloodlines and extensive mystical family backgound (on both sides may I add) I do the developing and any training of members, not only at the begining but throughtout.  I like to be considered an "Advisor." So here is my advice on the subject...

Eachone of us can acheive a level of greater hieghts, no one is higher than another, you may not be as gifted as some are naturaly but that doesnt mean you cant get there.  I was born with my gifts and as my grandmother died I recieved hers, yet through out my 29years THIS lifetime, I have striengthended and acquired more than those previously mentioned.  Look at the High Priestess/Preist as someone to learn from and help guide you to these greater heights, not in the dogmatic sence of the christian religion.

4.  Those greater levels of Ability/Magick, are not to be taught in books.  For example if one were to practice Chaos Magick, it is on expericence that I tell you this... One cant go it alone, unless already well developed or such as myself born with the ability to handle it, a novice may harm his/herself or others.  Even with carefull training it can go south.  But it is recoverable, by a skilled trainer.  That is why a "How-To" book on deaper sources of power are not avaliable, besides, it would be foolish and completely irresponsible to do so.  I can tell you this, a truely powerfull family will have a Family Grimoire, at times taught to only be avaliable in ones recollections or in actual print.  But you need to be a part of that family... Blood relative in most cases, and in some cases not every member of the family is given the right to know its power, such as in mine there are only a few who know. 

5.  Join a better looking group... Just kidding . I come from a good looking family, I get hit on all the time, I do mean all the time. Worst are my 2 cousins which are male in their mid 20's, girls literally fight for them (real catfights).  And my Brother(same description as my 2 cousins), oh the girls go crazy, willing to hang around each other just to be with him, is that crazy or what?  My best friend, and circle member is just... I mean... well...HOT!!! Dirty old men... eh, I guess its gonna happen to them eventualy too.  So they once started off looking good, time just got to them, but one should not discriminate based on age or weight.  We as women will eventually get to be crones such as The Crone, its just a part of life.

6.  ......... you really encountered that? Yikes!   We dont do that at all, at all, at all.  Sorry to have to break it to you but (there is a King of The Hill episode on such groups), these are the people who make us look bad.  No real gifts, absolutely NO IDEA what they are doing and quite frankly are well... ordinary.  Because if they did have any idea or "power" they would be too busy to roleplay.  Its just that simple.  Sorry about that, I guess somepeople really need to feel important, so much so they, play make believe.  Although with some proper training they will develop just fine.  Unfortunetly for them, they are too far gone in LaLa land that they dont reach for or want to be trained by an acutal trainer.

7.  I must defend Veggies on this, in reply to a previous post... It is NOT rediculous to eat only veggies because of cruelty to animals.   It is not a prerequisite, there are 3 in my cicle, the rest eat meat. IT IS A PERSONAL CHOICE, never forget that.  Yet with higher levels of understanding some see the connection to animals as more that just a food item.  Because if one were to argue food chain, well, lets see how well you do in the jungle full of lions and tigers... now the tables have turned, havent they.  Because to be absolutely fair you must be DEFENCELESS LIKE THEY ARE. So with no weapons at all to save you, who is the food now?  And if one were to read or be taught correct texts or teachings, one would know that Mother Goddess has the ability to call on animals.  Instinctually animals know who is their friend or foe... if you eat them what do you think they think of you.  Why do you think that is? Not mere coincidence, that they are intuituve. One of Mothers gifts is such, intuition.  Why would she bestowe gifts such as these on a food item. 

As I said before no one is above another, yet clearly there are those who need futher training.  And by training I do mean training in tolerance of others, and thier personal decisions.  Maybe a visit to a High Priest or Priestess may be in order for young or old padawans.     I will not make any statements denouncing meat eaters, bacause that is their choice.  And are fully entitled to do so.  There I have said my piece on the matter.  I dont, but you can or not, its your choice.

8.  For some, it is a form of energy transference it helps those who have a harder time visualizing to be able to do so effectively.  Others use it in healing, or protections.  I dont need to, but some do.  It just depends on your  ability.  Some of my guys and gals use them.  Naturals usualy dont, unless that is their familal gift, then its kinda a must.  Depends on the bloodline, I guess.

9.  What are Fluffy Bunnies.... really I dont know.  We are kinda sheltered in a sence from the community, so that terminology I am not in any way apt to answer.  Which is why I like this forum, I get to learn the new terms and sayings.

10.  I think those doing so feel outcast from christianity and feel they must attack lest they be attacked.  Dont mean to repeat myself but, training in tolerance is in order in some cases.  In others they have a clear vendeta against the christians.  And vice-a-versa, I mean look at the mess Bush has left, clearly a vendeta against those who are not like him.  Maybe he needs a lesson in tolerance too. 

11.  Again, dunno... really? In sheer...  I dont.....  hmm..... really?  Words can not express my embarassment.  I would refer to answer 6.  Or you can look for influence in... Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, any cutesy fictional story with a wizard in it.  But my guys like to get laid, so they look super hot with short hair and not facial anything.  I wonder if those guys ever get some?  Really, honestly I do wonder.  Cause I wouldnt, in a million years, and yes I have had the displeasure of bumping in to those.... yuck!  And if they do get some, then I wonder who would.... really I got to stop here cause what I may say next may insult.  So I will end it here.  Just know that not all cicles follow the same montra, some actually are percived as normal people who work and pay taxes.  I being one of them.

And lastly.... number 12.  Same as #6 in some cases in others means by which to channel energy.  And others just like swords.  I makes them feel manly, and some look good manly.  Like Orlando Bloom in Lord of the Rings, no wait... he had a bow and arrow.  Still manly to me.  It was Vigo Mortensen that had the sword, now hes manly, better with out the long hair and facial hair, yet never the less manly with his sword at his side.

So in conclusion to this long answer to your post, I will grant you this tidbit of wisdom....

You are you, and nothing will ever change that, if you were under my training the first lesson I would teach you is to descover yourself fully.  And go with what feels right.  Some groups are more normal than others, go with the one that suits you best.  I have a hunch you've encountered some groups that have not yet reached your level.  You may be more enlightened than you know.  When I get a newbie with questions on further or deeper knowledge than what is readly avaliable... I tend to start them out as more than just a newbie more closer to a Natural.  Honestly dont look for a group look for a coach or mentor, one which you feel you connect.  Some of my Padawans dont get to know eachother until they are ready to handle it.  It usually starts of on a 1 on 1 basis. 

20 some odd years doing this has lead me to help all who ask.  Hope it helps.

Pheonix

Hello, I'm Wren, I'm 22 from the UK. Ive been Pagan for seven years.
Not much to say really. Im happy to be here.
The following is a list of things I just seriously don’t get about the Pagan Community. I'd love some feedback.

CRINGE
-   1. The lack of young, sexy, straight, (available), men
-   2. Costumes (particularly crushed velvet and circlets)
-   3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing
-   4. Pagan books
-   5. Strange dirty old men
-   6. ‘Live Action Role Play’ geeks
-   7. Meat eaters
-   8. Crystals
-   9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’
-   10. The constant complaining about Christianity
-   11. Beards and long hair
-   12. The prevalence of people who need more exercise
-       13. Swords

[pheonixofthefire1]

I am a Vegerarian, and have been a Pagan for well over 25 years, I come from a long line of (for lack of a better term) Enlightened individuals.  I ate meat at one point and so do some of my group/family.  That holds no bearing on their abilities or levles.  It is a PERSONAL CHOICE TO MAKE.  One I made for my own personal reasons.  IT IS NOT REDICULOUS TO NOT EAT MEAT DUE TO CRUELTY. Such as it is not rediculous to eat meat.

I have written a respose to such a statement in post 325 #7, if you care to read it is there for your leisure.

  1. The lack of young, sexy, straight, (available), men
     The mother goddess doesn't exactly appeal to the above stated. My husband is young and sexy, and non pagan...we work it out 
 
  2. Costumes (particularly crushed velvet and circlets)
     Have you ever noticed when you wear a certain oufit, you just FEEL sexy, or confident?? I can't be a sex kitten in my jeans and t-shirts, and I can't evoke the mother goddess in stillettos and fishnets either. BUT when I put on a ceremonial robe, or dress, I FEEL like an earth worshipper, and can better get into the role of priestess VS. mommy, wife, or SrA Snuffy.

-   3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing
 All religions have clergy, paganism is no different

-   4. Pagan books
Elaborate

-   5. Strange dirty old men
Never encountered any in the decade I've been involved in paganism

-   6. ‘Live Action Role Play’ geeks
No idea.

-   7. Meat eaters
I didn't know you had to vegitarian to be a pagan. the earliest peoples on this planet were pagans and avid meat eaters. They hunted their prey, killed it, used every part they could off the animla and showed their respects. Mother nature, made us to be meat eaters. Doing so otherwise IMO, is going against that nature. Not eating the food she put here for us because its seen as "cruel" is ridiculous. Its called the food chain. She made that up too.

-   8. Crystals
Stones are pieces of the earth.

-   9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’
I consider those to be insecure with their own spirituality and feel the need to call out others to feel superior. Personally, I think its sick, and stupid. Grow up, ya know?

-   10. The constant complaining about Christianity
I never got this either, and I think its pointless. You can point out to the christians until you're blue in the face how every piece of their religion has its origins somewhere in paganism, and they won't care. But you know what? When you look at just about every other religion in the world, the root message is always the same " Be good, do good, be close to the divine" Of course we all have our own conception of the divine, but we all strive for it, just in different ways.

-   11. Beards and long hair
Dunno. I have long hair, but I'm a woman.

-   12. The prevalence of people who need more exercise
LOL...i like this. Couldn't tell ya. Probably from all the fatty red meat they're eating. Horrible non-pagan like, pagans!

-       13. Swords
They're compromising. hahaha.

[NTL, 32]

Hello, I'm Wren, I'm 22 from the UK. Ive been Pagan for seven years.
Not much to say really. Im happy to be here.
The following is a list of things I just seriously don’t get about the Pagan Community. I'd love some feedback.

CRINGE
-   1. The lack of young, sexy, straight, (available), men
-   2. Costumes (particularly crushed velvet and circlets)
-   3. The ‘High Priest’ and ‘High Priestess’ thing
-   4. Pagan books
-   5. Strange dirty old men
-   6. ‘Live Action Role Play’ geeks
-   7. Meat eaters
-   8. Crystals
-   9. Pagans who rave about ‘Fluffy Bunnies’
-   10. The constant complaining about Christianity
-   11. Beards and long hair
-   12. The prevalence of people who need more exercise
-       13. Swords

I am writing in response to your "The constant complaining about Christianity" concern. 

I am not really sure what you mean by the constant complaining about Christianity on the part of pagans.  I am not a pagan.  I actually delve into the practice of Mystical Christianity.  But I can imagine that if there is any complaning about Christianity on the part of the Pagan Community it is probably not unfounded for several reasons.

The first reason that Pagans probably complain about Christianity is because of the absolutist nature of the modern Christian Church.  The original tennants of the Christian Church were more about forgiveness and having a relationship with the ever loving divine.  Over the centuries and even now however, the Christian faith has been riddled with indivduals who find it necessary to pass judgement on those who do not believe exactly as they do.  Pagans have taken the full brunt of these judgements and have been accused of worshipping Satan for centuries.  This to me, would be an insult if I was a pagan.  Especially if I identified with a specific deity or deities who possessed none of the qualities and acted nothing like the judeo-christian being known as Satan.  The problem that Pagans probably have with Christianity (again this assumes that Pagans do complain about Christians), is that by labeling anyone who practices one of the numerous pagan faiths as a worshiper of Satan, is that it belittles someone's legitimate and very personal belief.  If a Christian labelled someone a 'devil worshiper' and that person actually did worship the devil they would not be so offended.  They would most likely proudly admit it (I am not critizing anyone that may follow this path, that is purely that person's perogative).

The second reason that Pagans probably complain about Christianity is because while the Christians label the pagans dangerous individuals, there are Christians going around murdering individuals and stating that it is God's will.  There are other faiths in the world that do the same thing and sometimes use the faith to commit even more haneous crimes.  However, I have never heard of a Pagan committing a crime in the name of their deity or deities although I could be wrong.  The fact of the matter is that some Christians are very quick to condemn the actions of the Pagans but at the same time seem to take the power of life and death out of the hands of the divine and place it into their own.

The third reason that I can think of why Pagans may complain about Christianity is that there are many elements of paganism within the rituals of some Christian Churches but christians feel the need to criticize pagans.  Take the veneration of Mary for instance, if you were to look at the way some Christians venerate the mother of Christ you'd swear that you were witnessing an old Mystery Cult Ritual like the rite of Isis.  However, Christians are very critical of the pagan belief system like those that venerate or worship a goddess or goddesses even though some of those beliefs are starring them right in the face.  Another example would be the concept of the trinity: God the Father watches over all of us, while Jesus Christ the Son of God is the physical manifestation of God on Earth, and the Holy spirit is the manifestation of God inside each one of us.  For some reason Christians believe that this is a distinctly unique belief structure.  Little do they know that this has elements of paganism written all over it. 

I am not criticizing the Christian Faith per se.  I do subscribe to many of the Christian tennants.  But I am also not a delusional person who believes that an individual while leading a wonderfully benevolent life is damned to hell because they have a different belief structure than I do.  Judgement is for the Divine alone and while we are here on Earth it should not only be our purpose to seek our own spiritual connections but also to live in harmony with one another.  If there is any problem that pagans have with Christianity it is most likely because of the above reasons and those reasons are not necessarily unfounded.  However, please remember that I am not familiar with the major criticisms of Christianity by pagans but if there are any, I have only listed the criticisms that are the most apparent to me. 

[pheonixofthefire1]

Wren, NTL has a point, more like 3 real good points on the subject.

I agree.  I come from Mexican Mystics, Healers, Telepaths and Psychics, most of which at some point became Catholic Mystics.  Mainly because being a Witch was a big no-no back in early 1900 Mexico.  So in order to preserve the family roots and continue with our Craft, we hid within the religion.  Nowadays I am glad to say we are more free to be anyone we want.  Things such as what happened to my ancestry are reasons why there is that Pagan-Christian friction. If you look in the Christian timeline you will see an emperialistic similarity to most previous empires or emperors i.e. Alexander the Great.  Conquered land after land destroying what was the foundation of each kingdom he overtook. Christianity threw Paganism in to the shadows and claims to be "The ONLY Truth".  Hence, Lilith was cast out of the Garden of Eden and sent to the darkness/shadows.  I hope this gets your wheels spinning.

I personally have no ill will twards any religion, faith, sect or whatever else is out there.  But I do know what was done to us in history.  And what continues to occur today is at times just as bad, some people in government would like to make this country a ONE Faith nation.  In other words Evangelical.... www.theocracywatch.org is a good source for more info on that.  Needless to say we should be bigger than that.  Live and let live.  No one better than the next.

I am writing in response to your "The constant complaining about Christianity" concern. 

I am not really sure what you mean by the constant complaining about Christianity on the part of pagans.  I am not a pagan.  I actually delve into the practice of Mystical Christianity.  But I can imagine that if there is any complaning about Christianity on the part of the Pagan Community it is probably not unfounded for several reasons.

The first reason that Pagans probably complain about Christianity is because of the absolutist nature of the modern Christian Church.  The original tennants of the Christian Church were more about forgiveness and having a relationship with the ever loving divine.  Over the centuries and even now however, the Christian faith has been riddled with indivduals who find it necessary to pass judgement on those who do not believe exactly as they do.  Pagans have taken the full brunt of these judgements and have been accused of worshipping Satan for centuries.  This to me, would be an insult if I was a pagan.  Especially if I identified with a specific deity or deities who possessed none of the qualities and acted nothing like the judeo-christian being known as Satan.  The problem that Pagans probably have with Christianity (again this assumes that Pagans do complain about Christians), is that by labeling anyone who practices one of the numerous pagan faiths as a worshiper of Satan, is that it belittles someone's legitimate and very personal belief.  If a Christian labelled someone a 'devil worshiper' and that person actually did worship the devil they would not be so offended.  They would most likely proudly admit it (I am not critizing anyone that may follow this path, that is purely that person's perogative).

The second reason that Pagans probably complain about Christianity is because while the Christians label the pagans dangerous individuals, there are Christians going around murdering individuals and stating that it is God's will.  There are other faiths in the world that do the same thing and sometimes use the faith to commit even more haneous crimes.  However, I have never heard of a Pagan committing a crime in the name of their deity or deities although I could be wrong.  The fact of the matter is that some Christians are very quick to condemn the actions of the Pagans but at the same time seem to take the power of life and death out of the hands of the divine and place it into their own.

The third reason that I can think of why Pagans may complain about Christianity is that there are many elements of paganism within the rituals of some Christian Churches but christians feel the need to criticize pagans.  Take the veneration of Mary for instance, if you were to look at the way some Christians venerate the mother of Christ you'd swear that you were witnessing an old Mystery Cult Ritual like the rite of Isis.  However, Christians are very critical of the pagan belief system like those that venerate or worship a goddess or goddesses even though some of those beliefs are starring them right in the face.  Another example would be the concept of the trinity: God the Father watches over all of us, while Jesus Christ the Son of God is the physical manifestation of God on Earth, and the Holy spirit is the manifestation of God inside each one of us.  For some reason Christians believe that this is a distinctly unique belief structure.  Little do they know that this has elements of paganism written all over it. 

I am not criticizing the Christian Faith per se.  I do subscribe to many of the Christian tennants.  But I am also not a delusional person who believes that an individual while leading a wonderfully benevolent life is damned to hell because they have a different belief structure than I do.  Judgement is for the Divine alone and while we are here on Earth it should not only be our purpose to seek our own spiritual connections but also to live in harmony with one another.  If there is any problem that pagans have with Christianity it is most likely because of the above reasons and those reasons are not necessarily unfounded.  However, please remember that I am not familiar with the major criticisms of Christianity by pagans but if there are any, I have only listed the criticisms that are the most apparent to me. 

[Star]

Hi Wren,

I just thought I should note, for you and NTL...  The thread was originally begun well over two years ago, and sneekywren hasn't been back to the forum for almost as long.  That doesn't mean the topic can't be discussed, of course--just don't expect a reply from the original poster. 

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