The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
June 26, 2022, 08:03:28 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
June 26, 2022, 08:03:28 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Poll
Question: Have you read  dao teh ching (aka tao te ching), or whichever way u prefer to spell it.
What is that?
heard of it, don't care too much though
No, plan to at some point.
Yes I have. (please comment on the book/philosophy below)
Loads of times (please comment on the book/philosophy below)

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Dao Teh Ching (pagans only)  (Read 7463 times)
Tj
Journeyman
***
Last Login:May 10, 2009, 01:36:26 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Daoist Shaman (I also associate the various spirits with their khemetic names).
Posts: 138


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Topic Start: August 21, 2007, 03:06:36 am »

Hi, I am just curious, as a follower of the Dao way of life, and a pagan. I don't mean to discriminate, but I am interested in what other pagan's think about it, since i am currently looking to combine Paganism and the Dao philosophy. Thanks a lot.
Logged

The earth is my home
the universe my temple
and nature: my god.

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Journey
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:February 13, 2010, 04:43:29 pm
United States United States

Religion: None
Posts: 1821


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #1: August 21, 2007, 08:07:29 am »

Hi, I am just curious, as a follower of the Dao way of life, and a pagan. I don't mean to discriminate, but I am interested in what other pagan's think about it, since i am currently looking to combine Paganism and the Dao philosophy. Thanks a lot.

I might strain my brain but here goes.......

Been a long time since I actually studied Tao / Dao and I have adapted elements of various philosophies into my beliefs, so if I am not 100% accurate on my interpretation, please be forgiving.

Your avatar Ankh & Yin Yang are both part of my beliefs. Actually, they go very nicely together. Yin Yang can be thought of as Neith Khnum. Achieving a natural harmony (Taoist) and achieving balance (Kemetic) are both the same.

Neith All that was, is and will be is like the Taoist concept of total understanding. The duality of Yin Yang (opposites) being in harmony is the same as the duality of the Kemetic Gods being in harmony. When things are balanced, then there is order, if unbalanced then there is disorder. This goes for nature as well as individuals.

To my way of thinking there really isn't that much of a difference between the philosophies. To both, (Tao and Kemetic) the elements or forces are thought of as separate, yet at the same time part of the whole. The big difference would be that in the Kemetic religion the elements are Gods which are part of The One God.

When all is balanced, all is well.

Hope that made a little sense anyway.

Blessings
Logged
joshuatenpenny
Journeyman
***
Last Login:November 01, 2007, 08:09:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Asphodel, recon-derived eclectic paganism
Posts: 158


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2: August 25, 2007, 09:58:23 pm »

Hi, I am just curious, as a follower of the Dao way of life, and a pagan. I don't mean to discriminate, but I am interested in what other pagan's think about it, since i am currently looking to combine Paganism and the Dao philosophy. Thanks a lot.

I have a love-hate relationship with Daoism. For a while I obsessively collected translations of the Tao Te Ching and I feel like I want it to resonate with me more than it actually does. I can't shake the sense that it praises complacency and mediocrity. I can appreciate the sense of being content with where you are, but to utterly reject ambition? I'm an activist - I want to change the world. I've got Big Plans, you know? I think the Tao Te Ching makes a wonderful tool of focus for a contemplative or renunciate, but not so much for a householder.

As far as how it squares with Paganism, it depends on what sort of paganism you practice. A Pagan whose religious practice largely involves appreciating the natural world and honoring it in small everyday ways is likely to find their practices more in harmony with Daoism than someone whose spiritual path stresses challenging yourself and struggling through self growth and spiritual development. If you can dig the whole "doing by not-doing" thing, I expect you can work it just fine.

Personally, I prefer the I Ching when I'm in the mood for enigmatic Chinese wisdom.

-- Joshua
Logged

nigel
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:May 10, 2010, 10:44:56 pm
United States United States

Religion: Seeking
Posts: 767


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #3: August 25, 2007, 10:59:54 pm »


Forgive my ignorance, but, why must an umbrella term like Paganism be compatible or incompatible with Taoism. As I understand it, Taoism could be a religion unto itself or a philosophy or way of living, this could synthesize with any number of religions under the pagan moniker.
Logged

----------------------------------------------
I'm a naughty monkey
Tj
Journeyman
***
Last Login:May 10, 2009, 01:36:26 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Daoist Shaman (I also associate the various spirits with their khemetic names).
Posts: 138


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #4: August 26, 2007, 02:07:49 am »

Forgive my ignorance, but, why must an umbrella term like Paganism be compatible or incompatible with Taoism. As I understand it, Taoism could be a religion unto itself or a philosophy or way of living, this could synthesize with any number of religions under the pagan moniker.

O sorry if I was misunderstood, I was not trying to say that Paganism as susch is incompatible with Daoism or anything, I was just wanting to know what people who are (to my as far as I can tell) religiously/spiritually a lot like me. If that make any sense. To some , Daoism just does not go with their spiritual path of paganism, to others it makes SO much sense that Daoism is an essential part of their spirituality.
Logged

The earth is my home
the universe my temple
and nature: my god.
Tj
Journeyman
***
Last Login:May 10, 2009, 01:36:26 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Daoist Shaman (I also associate the various spirits with their khemetic names).
Posts: 138


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5: August 26, 2007, 02:19:24 am »

I have a love-hate relationship with Daoism. For a while I obsessively collected translations of the Tao Te Ching and I feel like I want it to resonate with me more than it actually does. I can't shake the sense that it praises complacency and mediocrity. I can appreciate the sense of being content with where you are, but to utterly reject ambition? I'm an activist - I want to change the world. I've got Big Plans, you know? I think the Tao Te Ching makes a wonderful tool of focus for a contemplative or renunciate, but not so much for a householder.

As far as how it squares with Paganism, it depends on what sort of paganism you practice. A Pagan whose religious practice largely involves appreciating the natural world and honoring it in small everyday ways is likely to find their practices more in harmony with Daoism than someone whose spiritual path stresses challenging yourself and struggling through self growth and spiritual development. If you can dig the whole "doing by not-doing" thing, I expect you can work it just fine.

Personally, I prefer the I Ching when I'm in the mood for enigmatic Chinese wisdom.

-- Joshua

Daoism is actually VERY confusing, so first off; forgive me if I may interpret something that may or may not be there.

I don't think Daoism actually rejects ambition. It simply rejects modern day's ideas of ambition. Today most people's ambition would be anywhere between "I want to change the world make a difference" right up to "I want to live my life as a millionare and have a couple of girlfriends, a dozen cars etc." (you get the idea).  Again you may be the exception to this.

How I see it is, Doaism does not actually say "give up your ambitions", that is really more of a Buddhism thing. Daoism says, essentially, make life your fun roller-coaster ride, not letting life pass you by. It may sound very stupid as an advice, but if you think about it, how many americans or people in the so called "developed countries" do this. VERY VERY FEW. They just run through their life making as much money as possible, maybe enjoying a vacation now and then, but even that if you are anything like my mother, you will not enjoy. Her mind at a really long-deserved vacation is usually going "bank balance, job, house work etc".

Daoism says essentially "go with the flow". Does not mean that you cannot have ambitions, but just don't get SO hung up on your ambitions you forget to live.

-Tj
Logged

The earth is my home
the universe my temple
and nature: my god.
Glas Cailleach
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:September 22, 2008, 08:27:02 am
Australia Australia

Religion: bit of This, bit of That
Posts: 66


'Be different like us' - 'Hmm no.. I have a life'

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6: August 26, 2007, 02:20:09 am »

I feel like I want it to resonate with me more than it actually does.
-- Joshua

Oh yes I understand that feeling
Logged

joshuatenpenny
Journeyman
***
Last Login:November 01, 2007, 08:09:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Asphodel, recon-derived eclectic paganism
Posts: 158


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7: August 26, 2007, 01:27:57 pm »

How I see it is, Doaism does not actually say "give up your ambitions", that is really more of a Buddhism thing.

I really can't speak to what Daoism says, because I haven't studied anything about Daoism. I just had a period of obsessively reading the Dao De Ching. These are the verses that I'm talking about.

Quote from: Verse 3 (Blakney tr.)
If those who are excellent find no preferment,
The people will cease to contend for promotion.
If goods that are hard to obtain are not favored,
The people will cease to turn robbers or bandits.
If things much desired are kept under cover,
Disturbance will cease in the minds of the people.

The Wise Man's policy, accordingly,
Will be to empty people's hearts and minds,
To fill their bellies, weaken their ambition,
Give them sturdy frames and always so,
To keep them uninformed, without desire,
And knowing ones not venturing to act.

Be still while you work
And keep full control
Over all.

Quote from: Verse 19 (McCaroll tr.)
Stop being learned and your troubles will end.

Give up wisdom, discard cleverness,
and the people will benefit a hundredfold.

Give up benevolence, discard moral judgments,
and the people will rediscover natural compassion.

Give up shrewdness, discard gain,
and thieves and robbers will disappear.

These three false adornments are not enough to live by.
They must give way to something more solid.
Look for what is simple and hold onto the Uncarved Block.
Diminish thoughts of self and restrain desires.

Quote from: Verse 65 (Rosethal tr.)
The ancients who knew how to follow the Tao
Aimed not to enlighten the people,
But to keep them ignorant.
The reason it is difficult for the people to live in peace
Is because of too much knowledge.
Those who seek to rule a country by knowledge
Are the nation's curse.

-- Joshua
Logged

Tj
Journeyman
***
Last Login:May 10, 2009, 01:36:26 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Daoist Shaman (I also associate the various spirits with their khemetic names).
Posts: 138


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #8: August 26, 2007, 07:34:25 pm »

I really can't speak to what Daoism says, because I haven't studied anything about Daoism. I just had a period of obsessively reading the Dao De Ching. These are the verses that I'm talking about.

-- Joshua

Well as I understand it the first one you refers specifically to how to govern states/people, (c.f: Art of War, by Sun-Tze to find a similar advice, but put in a more obvious manner).

The second one, (verse 19) says not that you should stop learning, or being wise or anything of the sort. This is the problem with translations is that more often than not the ideas that are suggested in a scuttle manner are lost completely. Well, this one says essentially what I said before. Forgive me if I have not put it right, I am not so good with putting ideas into words that are understandable clear in any way. In any case, what he is saying is to go back to the "simple way of life" so to speak. You can still have ambition, but make it something that is what you truly want, and just go with the flow, keep your goal in life in mind of course, since you DO have free will, you can and may use it. Think of a river, its "ambition" as such is to ultimately reach the ocean (one way of thinking of things). Rather than loose itself in doing it, construct a scientifically shortest path to the river and follow it (the point here being, this would waste much time) etc, it goes with the flow, If the river has to bend around a hill, it will, if it has to join another one, sure why not!?!  It DOES reach its goal in the end, but it does not disturb the "mess up" the surroundings in the process.

Again forgive me, for not making much sense, it makes sense in my head I am just terrible at explaining it. The basic idea is "flow with whit it", "take what life throws at you", do as you see fit, enjoy life, but don't get too hung up on something. The best example here I suppose is a baby. It has ambitions (I suppose), like maybe, "try to stop this painful sensation in my stomach (a.k.a Hunger)". But it does not waste it's time as we do, trying to construct scientific theories on pain or something. If you take a toy away from a child, it will cry for a bit, but then find something else to amuse itself. This simple act is very "Tao". It likes the toy, it want to play with it, it will try to not lose it, but if perchance it IS lost, it will not worry too much, THIS is essentially what Tao teaches us we should be like, in every aspect of life.

hope this made little sense...lol!!!
:p
-Tj
Logged

The earth is my home
the universe my temple
and nature: my god.
WarHorse
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 04, 2012, 06:05:14 pm
United States United States

Religion: Eclectic Pantheist
Posts: 2994


The little tyke.

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9: August 26, 2007, 07:43:46 pm »

I really can't speak to what Daoism says, because I haven't studied anything about Daoism. I just had a period of obsessively reading the Dao De Ching. These are the verses that I'm talking about.

-- Joshua

Quote from: Verse 3 (Blakney tr.)
Be still while you work
And keep full control
Over all.

This with all the others - it would work fine within a single country, but when dealing with external influences, I have my doubts.

Perhaps I am reading Mr. Blakney's translation wrong, or his translation is slanted, but this would not work, IMHO, in our inter-connected world.

Just the thoughts of a simple horse farmer.

Logged

"I've seen knights in armor panic at the first hint of battle.  And I've seen the lowliest unarmed squire pull a spear from his own body to defend a dying horse." - Kevin Costner as Robin of Loxley, Robin Hood; Prince of Thieves.
joshuatenpenny
Journeyman
***
Last Login:November 01, 2007, 08:09:28 pm
United States United States

Religion: Asphodel, recon-derived eclectic paganism
Posts: 158


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #10: August 26, 2007, 10:45:12 pm »

Again forgive me, for not making much sense, it makes sense in my head I am just terrible at explaining it. The basic idea is "flow with whit it", "take what life throws at you", do as you see fit, enjoy life, but don't get too hung up on something.

I do appreciate that interpretation of it. I also appreciate that translating somewhat abstract philosophical paradoxical ancient Chinese poetry is not an exact science! 

I don't think Daoism actually rejects ambition. It simply rejects modern day's ideas of ambition. Today most people's ambition would be anywhere between "I want to change the world make a difference" right up to "I want to live my life as a millionare and have a couple of girlfriends, a dozen cars etc." (you get the idea).  Again you may be the exception to this.

I think that Lao Tsu rejected the modern day's ambition in his time, what with Confucianism and all that. But don't get me wrong here - I think there can be great wisdom in setting aside ambition, taking no more thought for the morrow than the lily in the field. I'm a monk at heart, really. Changing the world is a work that I have been charged with, but not something I would take up with great enthusiasm. So that is the love-hate thing with me and Daoism. It calls me to a simple life which isn't mine. For me - just talking about me - Daoism doesn't square with my particular "pagan" path. It calls me away from that path. It is inspiring and beautiful, but not for me.

-- Joshua
Logged

Tj
Journeyman
***
Last Login:May 10, 2009, 01:36:26 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Daoist Shaman (I also associate the various spirits with their khemetic names).
Posts: 138


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11: August 27, 2007, 02:05:52 am »

I do appreciate that interpretation of it. I also appreciate that translating somewhat abstract philosophical paradoxical ancient Chinese poetry is not an exact science! 

I think that Lao Tsu rejected the modern day's ambition in his time, what with Confucianism and all that. But don't get me wrong here - I think there can be great wisdom in setting aside ambition, taking no more thought for the morrow than the lily in the field. I'm a monk at heart, really. Changing the world is a work that I have been charged with, but not something I would take up with great enthusiasm. So that is the love-hate thing with me and Daoism. It calls me to a simple life which isn't mine. For me - just talking about me - Daoism doesn't square with my particular "pagan" path. It calls me away from that path. It is inspiring and beautiful, but not for me.

-- Joshua


Makes sense I suppose, it's not for everyone. Myself personally, I have some ambition but most of them are simple enough that life at some point will throw it at me (I hope). If not, like a true Daoist, I don't really get too hung up. My parents, are another matter (and it makes for a lot of discord in the house I suppose). For example, I am currently recovering from a severe depression/Sleep Disorder etc. I have been suspended from university for 8 months to recover. I really don't like it. I tried very hard to do anything so it doesn't have to come to that. BUT, life decided to throw me a curve ball, but the wonder of following a life philosophy that is very similar to Daoism is that it does not bother me that much. Of course I AM doing my best to make sure it does not repeat. But, I am not so hung up on it that I quit enjoying myself. I know some others who have had a bad year and have been suspended, it destroyed them. O well! Like I often tell people, so far as I can live as close to nature as possible, have a roof over my head, and 2 square meals a day, it is enough for me. Maybe I will change the world, maybe not. As a pagan and an environmentalist, now that I DO live on this earth I will try my best to take care of it, other than that, I pretty much don't care.

-Tj

P.S: My dream house is a little hut in the middle of the amazon, which I am sad to say there is not much left of these days. Every time I see the american/industrial influences in brazil it brings tears to my eyes, at some point that place used to be one big beautiful forest teeming with life. At least there is something left there which is nice. Smiley
Logged

The earth is my home
the universe my temple
and nature: my god.
Kasmira
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:July 29, 2017, 12:05:31 pm
United States United States

Religion: Buddhist and Daoist inspired something
TCN ID: Kasmira
Posts: 1582


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #12: August 27, 2007, 01:47:33 pm »

I think that Lao Tsu rejected the modern day's ambition in his time, what with Confucianism and all that. But don't get me wrong here - I think there can be great wisdom in setting aside ambition, taking no more thought for the morrow than the lily in the field. I'm a monk at heart, really. Changing the world is a work that I have been charged with, but not something I would take up with great enthusiasm.

When I read about setting aside ambition in the Tao Te Ching I read it as setting aside personal ambition, not necessarily all ambition. The Tao Te Ching calls for compassion and as such condones ambition to help others but not ambition to say get a high paying job in a bank. This means that it swings for some and not for others, a large part of my spiritual path is setting aside personal ambition and so I am worried that I am trying to see this in the text as opposed to it really being there.
Logged


Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss - Douglas Adams
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all - Oscar Wilde
The road to nowhere: My little foray into the blogoshpere
loneash
Master Member
****
Last Login:June 12, 2010, 12:58:45 pm
United States United States

Religion: eclectic pagan
Posts: 737

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #13: September 07, 2007, 10:17:56 pm »

Hi, I am just curious, as a follower of the Dao way of life, and a pagan. I don't mean to discriminate, but I am interested in what other pagan's think about it, since i am currently looking to combine Paganism and the Dao philosophy. Thanks a lot.

I am not a Taoist, but the writting have had a lot of influence on me.  I was fortunate to have had a Chinese scholar (last imperial class) teach the Tao and Confucianism for a semester.  (1952).  As I read over the verses it often gives me a sense of peace, i.e. I relax a little and rember that all that is apparent is not necessarily real.
Logged
Hyacinth Belle
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:December 03, 2011, 01:02:54 pm
United States United States

Religion: Heathen/Taoist
TCN ID: Hyacinth_Belle
Posts: 1217


Making my sun run...

Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #14: September 09, 2007, 09:38:20 am »

Hi, I am just curious, as a follower of the Dao way of life, and a pagan. I don't mean to discriminate, but I am interested in what other pagan's think about it, since i am currently looking to combine Paganism and the Dao philosophy. Thanks a lot.
There are a couple things I really get from Tao that fits neatly within my spirituality as a whole...

1. Tao. That the world is connected by this source that runs through and is everything. That's a comforting thought. It also reminds me that I am not the world. I am *my* world, sure, but there is more to this earth than me! Not to say I am arrogant or something, but we get so wrapped up in our own lives. It's good to just make a return and realize that things will not crash down on us if we don't control them.

2. As a continuation of that, the fact that you cannot control things. The world/Tao is a greater force than myself. I cannot change people, I can only offer them what they will take of me. As someone who is planning to be a high school teacher, a lot of the passages about governing and learning are very applicable. As other's have said, Taoism is not about compliance, it is about accepting things for the way they are, and not spending your entire life fighting the current. If you love something, let it go. Do what you believe you should or want to, but do not give of yourself because you feel you must of you need to. The above really is my philosophy of spellwork as well.

3. Balance. I am so drawn to this concept, and some of you may have noticed my post about my yin-yang tat I'm working on. Smiley Good does not exist without evil to counter it. And without good, evil means absolutely nothing. Etc. Loss is only loss because that is the way you perceive it for yourself. Everything must coexist in balance. Everything in moderation. For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action.

4. Quiet grace and strength. "The empty barrel makes the most noise." Etc. Tongue The bird that chirps the loudest is also getting the least done (unless, I suppose they are attracting a mate or the like. lol.). A river carved the Grand Canyon. Again, as a teacher, this concept is important to me.... you respect the teacher that has that quiet power and whose wrath you fear to come across, not the one that gets flustered and screams and jumps around. hahaha. Expending a lot of energy to get things done is usually not necessary.

I'm sure I could write more... but I think I'll stop at that for now!
Logged

"She who stands on tiptoe / doesn't stand firm. / She who rushes ahead / doesn't go far. / She who tries to shine / dims her own light. / She who defines herself / can't know who she really is. / She who has power over others / can't empower herself. / She who clings to her work / will create nothing that endures. / If you want to accord with the Tao, / just do your job, then let go." ~ Tao Te Ching, chp. 24

"Silent and thoughtful a prince's son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Respectable Pagans? « 1 2 3 4 »
Paganism For Beginners
Mithril 59 16945 Last post May 28, 2007, 02:45:42 am
by DazzlednFrazzled
Baptism and Pagans « 1 2 »
Paganism For Beginners
Ana 16 6273 Last post May 11, 2007, 06:10:04 am
by Elspeth Sapphire
The I Ching?
Books and Other Resources
NorthStar 10 2526 Last post September 24, 2007, 01:44:32 pm
by Zerynthia
Still don't get why non pagans consider pagans to be weird or etc « 1 2 3 4 »
Magic and the Occult for Beginners
Jessica A 47 16104 Last post January 09, 2008, 11:08:57 pm
by shawn
I Ching question
Divination SIG
rose 8 2327 Last post April 21, 2008, 07:53:18 pm
by rose
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.221 seconds with 52 queries.