The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
May 17, 2021, 03:47:18 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 17, 2021, 03:47:18 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Greek fires reach ancient Olympics site  (Read 13369 times)
EverFool
Board Staff
Staff
High Adept Member
***
Last Login:September 16, 2011, 12:40:01 pm
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: atheist
Posts: 2960


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #30: September 12, 2007, 01:45:28 pm »

You have such an optimistic outlook.


I'm a cheerful pessimist.  All my fears and worries for the future vanished when I decided I was ambivalent about whether humanity deserved to live or not.  Seeing Auschwitz threw a lot into place for me.
Logged

If anal prolapse teaches us anything, it's that it is what is inside that counts.

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #31: September 12, 2007, 06:13:17 pm »

<checks watch>

I still have time for a bowl of ice cream, right?

Definitely. At least one bowl, probably billions more.  Shocked
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Nyktipolos
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 29, 2014, 09:54:53 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Path of the Nightwanderer (Polytheist)
Posts: 1581

Gravatar

"Language is like wine upon the lips."

Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #32: September 12, 2007, 07:01:53 pm »

Definitely. At least one bowl, probably billions more.  Shocked
Billions?

Remind me to get some more ice cream then!
Logged

The Night Wanderer's Path <3
“God didn’t promise days without pain, laughter without sorrow, sun without rain,
but He did promise strength for the day, comfort for the tears, and light for the way.”
nigel
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:May 10, 2010, 10:44:56 pm
United States United States

Religion: Seeking
Posts: 767


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #33: September 12, 2007, 07:02:44 pm »


Ya, that was a pretty good sonnet we had to read in my English IV class, one of the few good sonnets and poems we had to read that year.
Logged

----------------------------------------------
I'm a naughty monkey
Kazer
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:January 08, 2008, 07:33:55 am
China China

Religion: Wicca
Posts: 75


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #34: September 13, 2007, 05:48:13 am »

He was talking in terms of significance to things like time and the universe.  I certainly appreciate the point that the past is important, but what you're saying sounds totally different from what he's saying, to me.  Perhaps I'm just not understanding, though.

That is basically what I'm trying to get across, sorry if I'm not doing very good. ^^U

But, let's say all the ruins/historical 'stuff' is destroyed. The farther and farther humans will get from their past, their humanity. Have you ever read the book "Snow Crash"? Kinda like that. I know that this mini-paragraph is a new idea, but I just wanted to inject it. Smiley

And what I meant by significance being improved is ruins and history can teach us what we've done wrong and what we've done right, and allow us to improve, to the possible point of being more significant to the universe, no matter how insignificant that is anyway, at least it will be improved from the even less we have now. 11 people will never, or at least have an extremely unlikely chance, of making the difference that ruins and other things could. Or the difference not having ruins could.
Logged

Life's a witch and then you fly.
Marilyn (ABSENTMINDED)
Assistant Board Coordinator
Senior Staff
High Adept Member
****
Last Login:February 06, 2013, 08:12:28 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: free-flowing animist, Dudeist Priest
TCN ID: Absentminded
Posts: 2725


Blog entries (11)


« Reply #35: September 13, 2007, 06:10:30 am »



Question.  What exactly does it mean to be 'significant to the universe' and why is this something we want, or even care one way or the other about?  And how much significance can there be in a lifeform which cares more about it's rocks than it's members?

Absent
Logged

"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure."
- Jack E. Leonard

Blessed are the cracked, for it is they who let in the light.

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

L Cohen
nemesisfirestorm
Master Member
****
Last Login:March 11, 2008, 07:07:34 am
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Brighideach Druid (OBOD) and a little bit of witchery thrown in.
Posts: 509


Tattoo for Brighid

Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #36: September 13, 2007, 06:45:16 am »

And what I meant by significance being improved is ruins and history can teach us what we've done wrong and what we've done right, and allow us to improve, to the possible point of being more significant to the universe, no matter how insignificant that is anyway, at least it will be improved from the even less we have now. 11 people will never, or at least have an extremely unlikely chance, of making the difference that ruins and other things could. Or the difference not having ruins could.

But those 11 people will have had probably a great deal more significance in the lives of those around them (parents, siblings, children) than the ruins ever will have done.  Does that mean that had just one person who is considered to be particularly influential and who we can learn from (good or bad) i.e. Einstein, Gandhi, Hitler, Mandela, Da Vinci, Christ etc been killed in the fires they would have been a greater loss than the 11 that have died, and therefore allowed to be considered a greater loss than the buildings?

Also, it's not the ruins themselves that teach us anything, per se.  We learn from the events that culminated in the building and eventual ruin of those monuments and the people that influenced those events.  These will always be documented, remembered and with us, for us to learn from.

Don't get me wrong, my first thought was about the buildings (possibly only because I have been to some of them), then when I realised how close to people the fires had started getting, my thoughts turned from the buildings to the people.

Both the loss of people and the buildings are tragic, but perhaps for similar though somewhat different reasons.
Logged

Mae'r cariad at fy ngwlad yn berwi yn fy ngwaed.

Kazer
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:January 08, 2008, 07:33:55 am
China China

Religion: Wicca
Posts: 75


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #37: September 13, 2007, 08:34:31 am »

Both the loss of people and the buildings are tragic, but perhaps for similar though somewhat different reasons.

True, but we're really just arguing how I value something.

Basically, this has gotten as far as it can without people just repeating the same thing over and over incessantly. I see where you all come from, and I hope you understand where I come from, even if you don't agree. So really, this was entertaining certainly, but should probably come to an end. Maybe shove the thread back on it's tracks a bit.

Is there any new news about the fires?
Logged

Life's a witch and then you fly.
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #38: September 13, 2007, 08:36:10 am »

And what I meant by significance being improved is ruins and history can teach us what we've done wrong and what we've done right, and allow us to improve, to the possible point of being more significant to the universe, no matter how insignificant that is anyway, at least it will be improved from the even less we have now. 11 people will never, or at least have an extremely unlikely chance, of making the difference that ruins and other things could. Or the difference not having ruins could.

So what? They are still living, intelligent beings and therefore -- in my moral system -- their lives are infinitely more valuable than some rocks: be those rocks one ton blocks of gold or ancient ruins. I'm a Hellenic Pagan so those ruins are important to me, but the lives of the people harmed or killed by this fire are of far more concern to me that what happens to a few ruins that have been used for their religious purposes in a couple of thousand years.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
nemesisfirestorm
Master Member
****
Last Login:March 11, 2008, 07:07:34 am
United Kingdom United Kingdom

Religion: Brighideach Druid (OBOD) and a little bit of witchery thrown in.
Posts: 509


Tattoo for Brighid

Blog entries (1)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #39: September 13, 2007, 09:35:16 am »

True, but we're really just arguing how I value something.

Basically, this has gotten as far as it can without people just repeating the same thing over and over incessantly. I see where you all come from, and I hope you understand where I come from, even if you don't agree. So really, this was entertaining certainly, but should probably come to an end. Maybe shove the thread back on it's tracks a bit.

Is there any new news about the fires?

I don't think anyone is arguing about how you value something, rather they/we are just saying they/we see it differently and perhaps find it a little difficult to understand your point of view Smiley

I can understand your reaction regarding the ruins, they are not only historically important, but beautiful too, and the one thing you can't get from books and knowledge is the feeling once you have walked up to the top of the hill to the Parthenon in Athens and stand there taking in the energy and view, for example, and the same for the arena at Olympia, etc.

It can be hard to say what you mean in writing sometimes.  I know I struggle enough, and often come across as unintelligible or just plain nuts Wink  Lol!

What I personally found difficult was that you seemed to almost dismiss human life (which I'm sure you're not), and the value that these 11 people had, not just as people but as family.  I think I understand what you were trying to say, but it didn't read too well, to me at least.

As for news, there doesn't seem to be much around at the moment.  I briefly saw something on tv the other day, but I was in the middle of cooking, so didn't get a chance to watch it.  I found this on Reuters though, and the number of people killed seems to be much greater than 11... Sad

Don't back out of a thread because of debate though Smiley  Unless of course you want to.  It's good to hear others points of view, even if people do disagree.  That's one of the beauties of having a brain!  I tend to back off or not post at all because I don't think I can keep up with everybody else lol, but I still enjoy reading what others have to say.
Logged

Mae'r cariad at fy ngwlad yn berwi yn fy ngwaed.

AIONIA
Adept Member
*****
*
Last Login:May 11, 2011, 02:35:41 pm
United States United States

Religion: Existence
Posts: 827


Blog entries (4)



Ignore
« Reply #40: September 13, 2007, 10:08:12 am »

However, the reason for my agreeing with you, is that I don't fear death. Death doesn't even make me sad, really.

I totally agree with you, but it isn't the death I have issues with. My big turn-off for people dying in these fires is the whole unpleasant burning-alive thing, that scares me.
Logged
Kazer
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:January 08, 2008, 07:33:55 am
China China

Religion: Wicca
Posts: 75


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #41: September 16, 2007, 05:23:10 am »

-- in my moral system --

That's part of the point in my last point. You can't really argue morals, just like you can't argue, for example, beliefs. Their beliefs, personal preferences.

I'll just state how I feel one more time and leave it at that, I can't really say anymore, with some people at least, this seems to be devolving from a discussion more to people yelling at me "I can't believe you could say/think such things, it's not  right."

But anyway, straight out, I personally hold the lives of 11 generic people (I'm not talking children, that hasn't been specified. I hold a child's life over and adults life, and that's a pretty common view) below that of the ruins that are under threat, and relatively generally any ruins of that age/importance. The reason I do this is because I feel that the ruins could help influence mankind that 11 generic people most everyone will/has never heard of or known. I understand how there families and friends must feel, it has to be the worst thing in the world to experience. If it happened to me I know I would pull the whole "Why me?" and be all emo for a good while, but I would still understand the fact that it's an insignificant occurrence. The families and friends, as well as I if it ever happened, would get over it sooner or later, and depending on their beliefs, be happy for those who died.

And about the being burned alive, that has to be the second worst single way to die, and I very sincerely hope that they lost consciousness/went numb/died quickly, and didn't have to feel much pain.

And as morals were brought into it, outside of the whole harm none thing, which I do hold strong to, I really don't have a code of morals. I find them silly. There is no such thing as good as evil, just negative and positive to a specific person. A 'bad' person is doing good for them self, just as much as say a policeman is doing bad for the person. Though I do believe that, I still do my best to always do positive actions for/to others, but that's only because I'm me, not because I have any moral belief that it's whats "right" or anything.

And that's that.
Logged

Life's a witch and then you fly.
Chabas
Reserve Staff
Staff
Master Member
***
Last Login:August 15, 2014, 02:06:27 pm
Netherlands Netherlands

Religion: Kemetic
Posts: 444


Blog entries (1)


« Reply #42: September 16, 2007, 07:06:03 am »

And what I meant by significance being improved is ruins and history can teach us what we've done wrong and what we've done right, and allow us to improve, to the possible point of being more significant to the universe, no matter how insignificant that is anyway, at least it will be improved from the even less we have now. 11 people will never, or at least have an extremely unlikely chance, of making the difference that ruins and other things could. Or the difference not having ruins could.

The thing is, the stones don't teach us anything. They're a reminder for things we already have in our memories. Without someone to point out "these ruins have this significance" they're just meaningless rocks, whereas we can still hold to the memories without the ruins. If aliens were to come to earth now, *we* could tell them about what we as a race have learned. The ruins wouldn't tell them a damned thing.

--Chabas
Logged
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #43: September 16, 2007, 08:25:29 am »

That's part of the point in my last point. You can't really argue morals, just like you can't argue, for example, beliefs. Their beliefs, personal preferences.

Philosophers and others have been arguing both for centuries. You cannot really argue opinions so if you are saying that beliefs and morals are just opinions (i.e. all are equal), then you might be right. However, most people to not consider morality and belief to be just opinion where are opinions are equal.
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
Kazer
Senior Apprentice
**
Last Login:January 08, 2008, 07:33:55 am
China China

Religion: Wicca
Posts: 75


Blog entries (0)

WWW

Ignore
« Reply #44: September 16, 2007, 09:11:03 am »

Philosophers and others have been arguing both for centuries.

Heh, yep! And have they really gotten anywhere with all that? Grin
Logged

Life's a witch and then you fly.

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.068 seconds with 53 queries.