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Author Topic: Unknown spell question, spell questions.  (Read 16442 times)
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« Reply #15: August 30, 2007, 08:45:43 pm »

Either way, after all this happened, he began just sort of; eh, avoiding me? Perhaps in the sense that we hung out but none of it crossed the normal, formal friendship line. Where we had been very close friends, it was very closed and protected now. Things felt very hollow, and empty. Perhaps this is why I still hang on it, as I find it a shame that things ended up this way?

I just thought of this; don't know if it's helpful or not. But does he know you're OK with the fact that he's Pagan? I know if my Southern Baptist Minister uncle walked in on me doing a ritual, I would probably react much the same way, even if he *didn't* start screaming hellfire and brimstone at me (which I expect he would). Maybe he doesn't know what you really think, and, aside from being embarrassed, angry at the disruption, etc. he's afraid that you'll judge him if he opens up to you?

I do remember one time my mom walked in...well...not really walked in...on a tarot reading I was doing. It was one of my first readings, and I was in the *perfect* mindset for it, but I wasn't good at holding concentration. She came into my room saying I just *had* to hear this joke she just read. I said "no, later" and she kept going "but it'll only take a minute!!" When she opened the door and saw what I was doing, she quickly retreated...but it was too late, my concentration was broken and I was unable to 'salvage' the mindset for that reading. I was *extremely* angry, and I actually threw something at her (it was just a throw pillow...don't worry. and pun not intended).

That incident made me angry not only because I had lost my concentration, but because I felt disrespected (even though I *know* she didn't know!! It's really not her fault!) and it left me feeling extremely vulnerable.
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« Reply #16: August 30, 2007, 09:12:25 pm »

....Hope that explains some of my beliefs, and thanks for asking.

Yes, very much so. Thank you for explaining. I understand your viewpoint much better now, sort of a Child of the Gods outlook. Makes a lot of sense.

Me, I work very little with Gods, holding more of an immanent belief system. I never ask Gods to work for me. I believe that magic is a very natural part of how the universe works, and the results of spells happen in a very natural way. Nothing like a two year old suddenly owning a Toys R Us store, but more like synchronistic opportunities occurring as we wish which we may or may not choose to take. If you want a BMW then the opportunities would appear so you could have one. The circumstances or sacrifices may be more than you wish to do, but the opportunity would arise. But this is just my own point of view, nothing says it is more right or wrong than yours. I certainly agree with you the Harry Potter type of magic is bunk, magic happens within the normal framework of life. The main difference is that I do not hold to needing the approval of any other enitiy for my work.  What I sow, I will reap.
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« Reply #17: August 30, 2007, 09:33:23 pm »

Me, I work very little with Gods, holding more of an immanent belief system. I never ask Gods to work for me. I believe that magic is a very natural part of how the universe works, and the results of spells happen in a very natural way. Nothing like a two year old suddenly owning a Toys R Us store, but more like synchronistic opportunities occurring as we wish which we may or may not choose to take. If you want a BMW then the opportunities would appear so you could have one. The circumstances or sacrifices may be more than you wish to do, but the opportunity would arise. But this is just my own point of view, nothing says it is more right or wrong than yours. I certainly agree with you the Harry Potter type of magic is bunk, magic happens within the normal framework of life. The main difference is that I do not hold to needing the approval of any other enitiy for my work.  What I sow, I will reap.

Beautifully put!  Thank you for sharing your views as well!
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« Reply #18: August 30, 2007, 09:54:08 pm »

As for "magic with intent to harm", personally, to my way of thinking, anyone who is arrogant or foolish enough to start acting like a God will be smote down, and rightly so.

So it isn't "acting like a God" to cause good things to happen to people through magic, only bad things? (If so -- No wonder I'm not Kemetic as this makes no sense to my little confused brain.  Huh )
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« Reply #19: August 30, 2007, 10:28:06 pm »

So it isn't "acting like a God" to cause good things to happen to people through magic, only bad things? (If so -- No wonder I'm not Kemetic as this makes no sense to my little confused brain.  Huh )

As usual I probably didn't explain things well - LOL

I guess, I would have to say you shouldn't think of yourself as a God at all because you aren't.
 
I must confess I do not understand your phrasing above, but I have been interrupted countless times in these last 5 min while I am trying to post here, so maybe it's just me losing my concentration.
I apologize, but I will have to continue this another time, another interruption! Ugh!
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« Reply #20: August 30, 2007, 10:37:06 pm »

I guess, I would have to say you shouldn't think of yourself as a God at all because you aren't.

I would agree with that. I guess where I disagree is that using magic to harm someone is acting like a God. To me, it's no different morally than harming them non-magically. And what is harm/not harm is highly subjective.

For example, a single mother who lived near me was physically overwhelmed by her brute of a son who was a mobster wannabe. The mother was going to get in trouble with the law if she did not force her son to attend school, but the son would hit her (hard) if she tried to make him to anything. I got tired of seeing/hearing it and since the law wasn't doing anything useful I did magic to bind the brute to be unable to harm any human for any reason (even if he was attacked because he saw EVERYTHING anyone did that he did not like as an attack). Was this harmful magic? From the POV of the kid, yes. From the POV of the mother, no.
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« Reply #21: August 30, 2007, 11:32:08 pm »

I got tired of seeing/hearing it and since the law wasn't doing anything useful I did magic to bind the brute to be unable to harm any human for any reason (even if he was attacked because he saw EVERYTHING anyone did that he did not like as an attack). Was this harmful magic? From the POV of the kid, yes. From the POV of the mother, no.

The only thing that would worry me would be if he was actually attacked (and not just his view of reality). If he was such a monster as you put, it would make sense that perhaps he'd developed enemies and if they ever tried to attack him.
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« Reply #22: August 31, 2007, 01:40:44 am »

So it isn't "acting like a God" to cause good things to happen to people through magic, only bad things? (If so -- No wonder I'm not Kemetic as this makes no sense to my little confused brain.  Huh )

The relevant text from Merikare is:

Well tended is mankind - the cattle of the god :                                 
[ fifteen lines of what-the-god-has-done-for-humans removed ]
He made for them magic as weapons,
to ward off the blow of events,
watching over them by day and by night.
He has slain the traitors among them,
as a man beats his son for the sake of his brother.
For the god knows every name.

(http://sofiatopia.org/maat/merikare.htm is the source of this version of the passage.)

Another version (http://terraflex.co.il/ad/egypt/merikare_papyrus.htm) has for the same bit:
He has made for them magic to be weapons to ward off what may happen. Be watchful over it by night as by day. How has He killed the disaffected! Even as a man strikes his son for his brother's sake, for God knows every name.

http://terraflex.co.il/ad/egypt/religion/magic.htm looks like a decent overview of ancient magical practices, including notes on execration rituals, love spells, and evil intent.  And criminal uses of magic, interesting; judicial records of the Harem Conspiracy (an assassination) include discussion of the magical stuff done by the conspirators ....
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« Reply #23: August 31, 2007, 08:18:08 am »

The only thing that would worry me would be if he was actually attacked (and not just his view of reality). If he was such a monster as you put, it would make sense that perhaps he'd developed enemies and if they ever tried to attack him.

That would have just been his tough luck. I was somewhat concerned about him, but far more concerned with his poor mother and people in the neighborhood. I decided the safety of those being wronged was more important than the safety of the person doing the wrongs. But I will admit that by the definitions of "magical harm" used by most Pagans, I caused this person harm. In similar circumstances, I'd do the same thing today.
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« Reply #24: August 31, 2007, 08:25:48 am »

He made for them magic as weapons,
to ward off the blow of events,
watching over them by day and by night.

Another version (http://terraflex.co.il/ad/egypt/merikare_papyrus.htm) has for the same bit:
He has made for them magic to be weapons to ward off what may happen. Be watchful over it by night as by day.

I guess I'm reading this differently as I'm not seeing "to ward off the blows of events" or "to ward off what may happen" as saying only use magic for healing, and other non-harmful things. First, it would be odd (to my mind) to describe magic so limited in use as "weapons" -- "shields" (or a word like it would make more sense).  Second, warding off what may happen often takes violence. You generally ward off invaders by defeating them in battle, for example.  But as I said, my mind and Kemetic teaching probably are not a good fit.
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« Reply #25: August 31, 2007, 08:37:04 am »



I kind of interpreted that verse as 'you've got magic, sort it out yourself' (the vulgar version, anyway!)  I didn't really see the 'it only works for good' in that - just a 'Shit happens.  This might help.'

But I might be reading it wrong too.
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« Reply #26: August 31, 2007, 08:50:27 am »

I didn't really see the 'it only works for good' in that - just a 'Shit happens.  This might help.'

That's pretty much what it said to me as well.

Quote
But I might be reading it wrong too.

I know I could be -- I'm interpreting it through my culture and mores, not those of ancient Egypt.
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« Reply #27: August 31, 2007, 10:41:17 am »


I think that simply he forgot to lock his door, and I ended up unknowingly walking in on the ritual. I still feel bad. Afterwards I apologized when I noticed how angry he was but he always said "forget about it" and brushed me off. I have no understanding of 'magic' I fully admit and I you have to understand how curious I was when I saw it and simply just wanted to ask questions and know, as it was completely different than anything I had seen before.

I actually am not well versed with Santa Lucia, so is there any sites about the headdresses in Wiccan culture that I could peruse? I don't want to bog you down with explanations when I can be easily linked somewhere.

It's not a big deal - just pointing out that there's a use of a candled headdress in other religious traditions too. Candled headdresses aren't terribly common in Wiccan practice (largely because they really aren't very practical: I certainly wouldn't use one working by myself, due to fire risk and wax dripping issues: you can't bend down to pick something up, you may need help if you trip or lose balance or something.)

More common ones involve a horned crown (deer antlers, mounted on a band that fits around the head). It's sometimes worn by priests in ritual. The most common priestess crown is a silver band around the head, usually with moon symbols on the front (the most common is a )O( pattern: the phases of the moon)

Is there a reason you're curious about the crown? Honestly, none of use can tell you why *he* was using it, beyond some general stuff on why someone might wear any crown, or some common uses for candles. Most Wiccan (and Wiccan-related) stuff can also be influenced by personal symbology: outside of work in a specific tradition's setting (a tradition is more or less the equivalent of a denomination), there are a lot of possible variations that people use.

Quote
I know that Jenett says that it may have been a really personal thing and now I feel bad as I didn't really consider that. But even now, years later, the amount of what I felt really is giving me the "curiosity killed the cat" feeling.

That's probably because it did. You didn't mean to do something upsetting to this guy - but from your description, it's pretty clear you did something that made him feel really uncomfortable about it. As others have said, maybe he felt embarrassed, maybe he didn't want to answer questions about it, maybe he was working on something very specific he had to go to some trouble to set up again and do. I don't think his response is unreasonable. I don't think yours is, either. Sometimes people react to something differently, and it changes the relationship.

Are you curious about Paganism (in whatever form) and want to explore it for yourself? Cool. We (this forum) can help with resources and ways you can learn more. However, you'll probably do better if you back up a few steps, and stop trying to figure out what *he* was doing, or exactly why, and look at more general practices first.

What we can't do is tell you what he was thinking, or patch up that friendship for you. That's something you and he would both have to want to do together, and maybe he doesn't want that. If he doesn't want to be that close anymore, that's his right and his choice: you get to decide how you're going to move on.

It's okay to wish you'd done something different, and that things hadn't ended that way. But if you keep living in that mindset, you're not going to learn as much from what happened, maybe avoid similar problems in the future, and you might not be as open to experiences that would let you meet people you could be as close to.

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I think an honest question I have is that there also seems to be a good line between 'good' and 'bad' magic, when how do you know that a good spell was completely inappropriate or went wrong?

Let me give you two examples, so I can do some discussion.

A while back, my ex-husband and I had a houseguest (someone he knew from online) stay with us, who turned out to be problematic. (It wasn't the online meeting part: we'd both met tons of people from online: this is the only time it's been that weird.) I did some magical work to reinforce the protections around our apartment, with a specific focus on "people who are willing to be good guests, and who are welcome to be here should feel comfortable: people unwilling to do that should feel uncomfortable." She moved out to stay in a hotel the next day.

The day after that, we got a firm notice from our complex, about the fact that they'd found stuff in the previous fire inspection (which we hadn't received notice of) that must be taken care of within three days. I looked at the letter, and had to start laughing: it was pretty clearly a result of the magical work enforcing my caretaking of the space, and a reminder that I hadn't been as good about some parts of it as I should have been. Good spell. Perfectly appropriate (we have a right, as the people living there, to enforce certain behaviors if we wish.) But at the same time, there are consequences for that, and it was a reminder that I was treading the edge of appropriate.

Another example: (I'll note that I'm being deliberately vague here for a variety of reasons). My ex-husband was accused of something serious at his job. He swore to me that he was innocent, had no idea what was going on, etc. He was suspended while they were investigating. About a week into that, I asked him if I could do a justice working - and that if there was *anything* he hadn't told me about this, that there might be repercussions for that. He swore, no, there was nothing to tell.

I did the justice working. Next day, he got the call saying they were firing him. In hindsight (ex-husband, remember?) I should have put the pieces of this together much faster, but I now have reason to believe he - at the very least - knew more about it than he told me. That lead to a year of *very* tight financial situations, further stuff he broke agreements about, and we separated the following November.

In both these cases, at the time, I thought the outcomes were not what I expected. And for quite a while, I thought the justice one *had* gone wrong.  But in hindsight, they turned out to have been *very* accurate: I just wasn't seeing the whole picture.

What would be inappropriate or wrong? If I'd tried to do a working, say, to directly make the houseguest go away (rather than giving her the option of changing her behavior, which the 'these are the house rules/expectations' magical work left as an option.), that would have been inappropriate. Not 'wrong' or 'bad' (still our house, we still get to set the boundaries, though doing it magically is rather passive/aggressive.) But inappropriate.

'Wrong' in my book tends to mean 'didn't work', in the sense of "something in the magical technology of trying to accomplish what I wanted failed'. I may have spent too much time with a covenmate who's an engineer, but my response is usually to try and figure out where the failure point was, and to try again after adjusting for that.

For example, I've been doing a lot of job workings - I just finished my MLIS degree, and I want a new job to go with it. But they haven't, basically, worked. A bunch of further discussion with friends, and meditation, and other things, suggests that there are some underlying causes that I needed and need to do a little more work on. (I'm working on that now, and will then go back to specific job-focus magical work.)

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« Reply #28: August 31, 2007, 02:01:50 pm »

Hope that explains some of my beliefs, and thanks for asking.

Thanks, now I get what you meant by your statement. With this background what you said makes sense to me.

It seems a bit to be another explanation why not everybody gets everything he wants.
In this it says: it was not in the plan anyway or you overstepped the line.
Modern motivation coachs would say: you havn't thought positive enough.
Some other folks might say: you havn't visualized good enough.
Some fluffies might say: you used the wrong candle Wink

To see what is good/bad is highly subjective - I agree with you, that we can't see the whole of the picture. But still we have to act and react. It's not always possible to kick back and wait that someone else is sorting things out. (Well, maybe it is, but I don't think many people have the temper for this. *g*)

I've experienced both: things I thought that would be good and I wanted to do the magic but then felt held back - like somebody said 'This is not yours' and the other way: something might considered harmful and felt ok doing from the start to the end.

I think what I want to say is, that for me the rules about doing magic are basically: Listen well, feel what's in the depths, think twice about it and then act without hesitation.
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« Reply #29: August 31, 2007, 02:05:30 pm »

I guess I'm reading this differently as I'm not seeing "to ward off the blows of events" or "to ward off what may happen" as saying only use magic for healing, and other non-harmful things. First, it would be odd (to my mind) to describe magic so limited in use as "weapons" -- "shields" (or a word like it would make more sense).  Second, warding off what may happen often takes violence. You generally ward off invaders by defeating them in battle, for example.  But as I said, my mind and Kemetic teaching probably are not a good fit.

I was not disagreeing with you.  If your mind and Kemetic teaching are not a good fit, it has nothing to do with your perfectly sensible (and historically supported in actual Egypt, as my other link notes) view of magic.

My interpretation of that passage has always been remarkably like Everfool's -- "The gods gave you magic so you'd stop pestering us; learn to deal with your own problems."
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