The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum (Archive Board)
May 14, 2021, 03:35:18 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: This is our Read Only Archive Board (closed to posting July 2011). Join our new vBulletin board!
 
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 14, 2021, 03:35:18 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Donate!
The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.
TC Staff
Important Information about this Archive Board
This message board is The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum's SMF Archive Board. It is closed to new memberships and to posting, but there are over 250,000 messages here that you can still search and read -- many full of interesting and useful information. (This board was open from February 2007 through June 2011).

Our new vBulletin discussion board is located at http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/ -- if you would like to participate in discussions like those you see here, please visit our new vBulletin message board, register an account and join in our discussions. We hope you will find the information in this message archive useful and will consider joining us on our new board.
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9]   Go Down
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
Author Topic: Is It Time For a "Reformed" Hellenic Paganism?  (Read 47050 times)
BGMarc
Adept Member
*****
Last Login:August 17, 2011, 09:57:32 pm
Australia Australia

Religion: Stoic (with declining druidic/wiccish hangovers and emergent Hellenic/Kemetic affiliations)
Posts: 1525


Blog entries (0)

Marc Larkin 6marc9
WWW

Ignore
« Reply #120: May 01, 2009, 11:58:56 pm »

Well, the state only stopped sponsoring the religion when Christianity took over.  After that, practicing any other religion out in the open would cause that person to be executed.

Question is, how did worshippers respond? Did they just convert? Did they go underground? Did they think the Olympians had deserted them, or were no longer worth worshipping? What actually happened?
Logged

"If Michelangelo had been straight, the Sistine Chapel would have been wallpapered" Robin Tyler

It's the saddest thing in the world when you can only feel big by making others feel small. - UPG

Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime. The sentence is death. There is no appeal and sentence is carried out automatically and without pity. Lazarus Long.

BGMarc at the Pub

Welcome, Guest!
You will need to register and/or login to participate in our discussions.

Read our Rules and Policies and the Quoting Guidelines.

Help Fund Our Server? Donate to Lyricfox's Cancer Fund?

Melamphoros
Staff
Grand Adept Member
***
Last Login:March 28, 2015, 11:01:26 pm
United States United States

Religion: Informed Eclectic with Hellenic Overtones
TCN ID: Melamphoros
Posts: 13621


Kiss My Scythe

Blog entries (0)


« Reply #121: May 02, 2009, 12:19:14 am »

Question is, how did worshippers respond? Did they just convert? Did they go underground? Did they think the Olympians had deserted them, or were no longer worth worshipping? What actually happened?

In all honesty, I have no clue.  My best guess is that they probably just converted.  Some may have been paying lip service to the church while practicing the religion in secret, but it probably didn't pass to younger generations and simply died out.

I'm about to fall asleep, so I may need to get back to you on this sometime tomorrow.
Logged



Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog
sailor_tech
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 06, 2011, 04:43:27 pm
United States United States

Religion: Jewish
Posts: 3564

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #122: May 02, 2009, 06:49:51 am »

Question is, how did worshippers respond? Did they just convert? Did they go underground? Did they think the Olympians had deserted them, or were no longer worth worshipping? What actually happened?

http://www.amazon.com/Chronicle-Last-Pagans-Revealing-Antiquity/dp/0674129709/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241261229&sr=8-4

The process took several hundred years, so it wasn't just conversion.

I'm still not sure why Randall thinks that it practically requires a state religion.
Logged
RandallS
Co-Host
Administrator
Grand Adept Member
*****
Last Login:October 30, 2020, 08:18:05 am
United States United States

Religion: Hellenic Pagan
TCN ID: ADMIN
Posts: 17181


Blog entries (0)


« Reply #123: May 02, 2009, 08:01:13 am »

I'm still not sure why Randall thinks that it practically requires a state religion.

Classical Greek religion doesn't really work unless each city has a number of temples, lots of religious festivals, and everyone in the city follows the religion (not belief-wise, but practice-wise).  In modern terms, this would have to be a state religion to build and maintain the temples, sponsor the festivals and require businesses to give time off for them, require people to participate, etc. You can, of course, have Greek religion without all this, but it would not be Reconstructionist (Classicial era).
Logged

Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog - Forum] -- Out Of Print & Out Of Style Tabletop Roleplaying Games
Software Gadgets Blog -- Interesting Software, Mostly Free
Cheap Web Hosting -- Find an Affordable Web Host
sailor_tech
High Adept Member
******
Last Login:July 06, 2011, 04:43:27 pm
United States United States

Religion: Jewish
Posts: 3564

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #124: May 02, 2009, 08:13:33 am »

Classical Greek religion doesn't really work unless each city has a number of temples, lots of religious festivals, and everyone in the city follows the religion (not belief-wise, but practice-wise).  In modern terms, this would have to be a state religion to build and maintain the temples, sponsor the festivals and require businesses to give time off for them, require people to participate, etc. You can, of course, have Greek religion without all this, but it would not be Reconstructionist (Classicial era).

Number of temples - easy, enough practioners to support them financially. no need for state religion for that.

Lots of religious festivals - easy, already happens in various US cities.  biggest change would probably be that the religion would be a dominate form of activities rather than going to the ball game, etc for Hellenics

Not sure why everybody in a city has to follow the practices of the religion.  We have enough Greeks, in the post Alexander period, living outside of Greece in non-majority Greek areas that kept up their religion. (and probably significant numbers pre-Alexander)

Now, if you are trying to go back to Greek religion in the early city-state era, then you might have a point. But, at then I'd point to the 600 plus years of Greek paganism as the way to reform Hellenic religion.


Logged
Aetius
Master Member
****
Last Login:August 09, 2009, 09:41:56 pm
United States United States

Religion: Hellenismos
Posts: 509


Hellenic Polytheist Revivalist

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #125: June 03, 2009, 09:30:26 pm »

http://www.amazon.com/Chronicle-Last-Pagans-Revealing-Antiquity/dp/0674129709/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241261229&sr=8-4

The process took several hundred years, so it wasn't just conversion.

I'm still not sure why Randall thinks that it practically requires a state religion.

Vlasias Rassias offered a concise timeline in an excerpt of his book, Demolish Them!

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_060.htm
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 09:33:22 pm by Aetius, Reason: fix code » Logged

Too bad the Gods can't save me from my own stupidity.
Caeia Iulia Regillia
Apprentice
**
Last Login:July 08, 2010, 07:31:44 am
United States United States

Religion: Religio Romana (revivalist)
Posts: 37


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #126: June 04, 2009, 09:37:07 pm »

Classical Greek religion doesn't really work unless each city has a number of temples, lots of religious festivals, and everyone in the city follows the religion (not belief-wise, but practice-wise).  In modern terms, this would have to be a state religion to build and maintain the temples, sponsor the festivals and require businesses to give time off for them, require people to participate, etc. You can, of course, have Greek religion without all this, but it would not be Reconstructionist (Classicial era).

I think you could have pomps around any temple or even marching through the the temple without the need for marching through public streets.  And private donations can just as easily maintain a temple without state sponsorships.
Logged



Aetius
Master Member
****
Last Login:August 09, 2009, 09:41:56 pm
United States United States

Religion: Hellenismos
Posts: 509


Hellenic Polytheist Revivalist

Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #127: June 05, 2009, 08:33:32 pm »

I think you could have pomps around any temple or even marching through the the temple without the need for marching through public streets.  And private donations can just as easily maintain a temple without state sponsorships.

Methinks the loaded word here is, "Classical".
Logged

Too bad the Gods can't save me from my own stupidity.
Carnelian
Master Member
****
Last Login:January 15, 2012, 12:55:04 pm
Canada Canada

Religion: Greek paganism
Posts: 289


Blog entries (0)



Ignore
« Reply #128: July 10, 2009, 08:43:57 pm »

I'm going to say something that is going to upset a number of people, but after much thought, I've come to the conclusion that Reconstructionism can be a dead end for certain types of religion: specifically more highly organized state religions -- like the religion of ancient Greece

In some ways, I agree with you. I think it is possible for a person to practice religion that is authentically Hellenic in spirit without having a lot of people, but it can be rather cold and impersonal if it becomes too academic. Sometimes I admire the poetry and the freedom of a tradition like Wicca (or neo-Wicca), where a person can connect with the gods without worrying about historical validity.

There were 3 aspects to Hellenic religion: civic religion (not applicable anymore), personal religion, and mystery religion. Personal and mystery religious practice have to be combined in modern times, which can be difficult as there aren't a lot of sources about what actually went on in mystery cults. It's too bad, as it might inject some spirituality into reconstructionism, which it can lack. I'm not saying Hellenic reconstructionism is void of emotion and spirituality, but it does tend to be conservative when it comes to historical validity, though not everything is able to be reconstructed properly.

My practice is similar to what you described. I have a candle to Hestia which I light every day while saying her Orphic hymn, and I light candles for other deities and incense offerings from the central Hestia flame. I follow the Attic festival calendar, so I honour the appropriate god of the day according to that calendar, and Hestia every day. I have a shrine to Aphrodite, and another to Zeus and Hera, which I tend to regularly. I do the best I can, but like you said, it's difficult to revive the entire religion.
Logged

Donor Ad: Become a Silver or Gold Donor to get your ad here.

Tags:
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9]   Go Up
  Add bookmark  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  
  Portal   Forum   Help Rules Search Chat (Mux) Articles Login Register   *

* Share this topic...
In a forum
(BBCode)
In a site/blog
(HTML)


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
A First Stab at Reformed Hellenic Paganism « 1 2 »
Ta Hiera Hellenic Polytheism SIG
RandallS 27 13237 Last post February 20, 2008, 05:58:26 pm
by RandallS
The "Reformed" Moniker? « 1 2 »
Hazel and Oak: A Celtic Polytheism SIG
CaelumRainieri 25 9304 Last post September 15, 2007, 10:31:37 pm
by Purplewitch
Interesting Occurance with "Time logged in"
Social Discussion Boards
Diamond NightShade 5 2938 Last post May 20, 2008, 09:26:44 am
by saxnot
"Paganism returns to the Holy Land"
Religious News
LyricFox 7 3551 Last post October 06, 2010, 11:56:19 am
by RandallS
For "Hellenic Pagans" « 1 2 »
Ta Hiera Hellenic Polytheism SIG
Ampelios 22 16169 Last post June 29, 2011, 10:17:49 am
by Haganrix
EU Cookie Notice: This site uses cookies. By using this site you consent to their use.


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.061 seconds with 41 queries.