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Author Topic: Eating Meat...looked down upon? Or no?  (Read 26775 times)
RandallS
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« Reply #15: September 11, 2007, 08:04:46 am »

But what is your take? Is it going against the religion?

It isn't going against my religion, Hellenic Paganism. This is one of the problems books and people have making "Pagans do/Pagans believe" claims -- there are many different Pagan religions and what is believed by one has little to do with what is believed by another.
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« Reply #16: September 11, 2007, 09:16:04 am »

But what is your take? Is it going against the religion?
~AngersLegacy

It's not against my path but for the last 3 days I have decided to live meat free.  I will continue to eat fish however but that is just a personal choice.  I feel like my body needs to be "cleansed" so I have chosen to cut out red meats, pork and poultry.

Already my body feels better.
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« Reply #17: September 11, 2007, 09:26:40 am »

There's vegan wine??

Apparently so.  To my surprise, there's actually a wiki article on it.  Apparently some of the filtering agents are animal products like gelatin.  Who knew?
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« Reply #18: September 11, 2007, 09:31:31 am »

But what is your take? Is it going against the religion?

I've decided to not eat meat many years ago, but eating meat isn't going against my religion and I would never look down upon someone who eats meat. I'm the exeption, omnivores are the rule. I also have absolutely no problem with persons at my table eating meat, which I know some vegetarians have...

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« Reply #19: September 11, 2007, 10:27:33 am »

But what is your take? Is it going against the religion?

I personally agree with the idea that I’m a part of the cycle of life and death, which includes me eating meat. While I understand why some people would choose to be vegan, I also think it’s a bit odd to exclude a source of food that humans have been eating since creation. I understand the sacrifice and views behind it but don’t feel it’s something I need to do. I came from the earth, I feed from the earth, and one day I shall return to the earth.

The author of the book that stated that real Pagans need to be vegetarians is most likely presenting a personal conviction as fact. Of course, anyone making a blanket with the words “all Pagans” probably doesn’t know what they are talking about. Such passages annoy me so much.
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« Reply #20: September 11, 2007, 10:27:56 am »

I eat meat.... i cant avoid it, I'm Argentine and my country its famous for its steaks, my sister is pagan and she doesn't eat meat, or at least red meats, i think the only kind of meat she eats is fish. We don't blessed the meal before to  start but i know my grandparents and great-grandparents use to have a special night (august 1st, mother's earth day) in which they cooked a supper in offering to the mother earth  (really,they cooked the best meal of the year and then, they made a hole  and bury it underneath the soil, literally) . I know some people still do that, but i asked to some family members why we don't do such thing anymore, their answer were that we don't have anymore  the bound with the earth as my grandparents had, because we don't cultivate the soil   and we don't depend of it for our survival.....i don't agree much with this last idea........
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« Reply #21: September 11, 2007, 10:33:20 am »

But what is your take? Is it going against the religion?

There are people who argue it. I don't think they're very persuasive.

I *do* find another argument a lot more persusasive, though - which is the idea that if we're a) connected to other living beings on the planet and b) responsible for the consequences of what we do (both common in many forms of Wicca, and in somewhat different levels of focus to other Pagan religions as well), then it follows that c) we should be thinking about what we do with our bodies.

That doesn't mean that we need to go all the way overboard: the human body evolved to eat meat, a number of people need to eat it or are far healthier when we do. (and, arguably, a *lot* of the stuff at any fast food place is less meat than soy product these days.)

But it does, quite arguably, mean that we should be thinking about where our food comes from, and whether we're okay with that. I've been having that conversation in a bunch of different places in my life recently. I'm certainly not perfect (and to complicate that, I eat lunch as a work-provided benefit, so we don't have a lot of say over where our cafeteria company buys food, though they do a good job of getting local, organic, etc. stuff when it's feasible). But I'm thinking about it a lot more.

One thing that really helped me sort out some of this is the book _The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals_ by Michael Pollan. One reason I really like this is that he *doesn't* say "You must do X". Instead, he looks at four different kinds of food production (a fast-food meal, a non-local organic meal, such as you'd find in Whole Foods or another chain, a locally grown meal, and a hunted and gathered meal.) He's realistic about the benefits and challenges of each one, and he's really clear about the fact that no one type of meal is a good choice for everyone all the time. But being aware of what our choices really are about helps.

The other thing was an experiment one of my covenmates (who also teaches psychology and sociology and some related classes) has been doing. She bought a hamburger and fries at McDonald's and left them sitting out. In July. They haven't grown mold, they haven't changed in appearance - but none of the animals in the house will touch them, the fruit fly infestation they got wouldn't touch them. Pretty telling.

(As part of this, we've been doing a conversation about buying a cow, a pig, and some chickens from a local farmer, and splitting it among multiple households - organically raised, we could meet the animals before slaughter, see the farm, etc. We're just trying to figure out the logistics. Easier to do in Minnesota than in many places, but it's often possible in other places, too.)
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« Reply #22: September 11, 2007, 10:48:37 am »

But what is your take? Is it going against the religion?

Well, I eat poultry and fish, but no pork or red meat.  But that has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Simple, my body cannot deal with red meat.  I get really sluggish, sick and 'slimey' feeling if I eat too much of it.  Seriously.  A friend of mine was staying with me for a week. She knew I didn't eat red meat, but that's all she and her husband ate.  She insisted on cooking that whole week. Guess what she cooked...you betcha... red meat.  By the end of the week I was so sick. My skin had taken on a greyish tinge and I felt like my limbs were made of concrete.

So, now I very RARELY eat it.  Once in a while, just to make my daughter happy, I'll make something with ground chuck or sirloin in it, but that's it.
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« Reply #23: September 11, 2007, 11:01:43 am »

Wait, I'm confused.  What animal product does wine have in it that would make it non-vegan to begin with?

This is an explanation I got from a vegan wine website:

1.2 Why are all wines not suitable for vegans?

Many wines are made using animal-derived ingredients to assist in the processing of the wine. Whilst these ingredients in the main are filtered out of the wine before it is sold, the use of animal ingredients in the creation of the wine makes them unsuitable for consumption by vegans. Typically these ingredients are used as processing aids in the "fining" or filtration part of the winemaking process to help remove solid impurities such as grape skins, stems, pips, to remove the yeast used in the fermentation process or to adjust the tannin levels in certain wines. This is done to end up with a clearer, brighter, better tasting and more presentable wine.

1.3 What animal ingredients are commonly found in wine?

The most common animal ingredients used in wine making are isinglass (a very pure form of gelatine from sturgeon fish bladders), gelatine (extract from boiled cow's or pig's hooves and sinews), egg whites (or albumin) and caseins (a protein from milk). Very occasionally blood has been used as an additive - "sangre de toro" means "bulls blood" - but rarely literally any more. This ingredient was declared illegal for use in European wines in the aftermath of the outbreak of BSE (mad cow disease).


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« Reply #24: September 11, 2007, 11:38:46 am »

She bought a hamburger and fries at McDonald's and left them sitting out. In July. They haven't grown mold, they haven't changed in appearance - but none of the animals in the house will touch them, the fruit fly infestation they got wouldn't touch them. Pretty telling.

Not that I advocate McDonald's (fast food in general isn't good for you), but my animals have no problem eating a burger from there. and trust me, the scraps of food that I find in the back seat of my truck from my sloppy kid look anything but normal if I don't get them cleaned up quick enough.
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« Reply #25: September 11, 2007, 11:40:27 am »

But what is your take? Is it going against the religion?

I don't eat meat due to a combination of certain environmental/ethical concerns and my own unverified personal gnosis (UPG), but I can't recall any large-ish modern Pagan/Heathen tradition that outright forbids eating meat (if there is I'd be interested to know about it).

I personally don't see anything ethically wrong with eating animals (in a general sense), though I do think our modern culture has a strange and disconnected relationship to the meat it eats. In many cases we don't know where the animals came from, how they were raised and killed, or what happened to that meat between the kill and its final destination. That concerns me far more than whether or not you choose to have a hamburger with lunch.
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« Reply #26: September 11, 2007, 12:12:41 pm »

but .. if it's not made of grapes, it's not /wine/.  It might be alcohol .. but it's not /wine/.

It can be.  There's some apple wine on the market, and some wineries make wines based on other fruit too, though I think those are not as widely marketed.  Hubby and I were just sipping on a cherry wine last night (tastes just like old-fashioned sour cherry pie without the crust--this isn't grape wine with some cherries in it, it's wine made exclusively from cherries).  It's not, like, really fine expensive wine (quite the opposite in some cases--Boone's Farm wines are mostly apple f'ex), but it does exist.

I'd never heard of fruit being non-vegan just because it was fruit, though.  Then again, I'd also never heard of wine being non-vegan, so what do I know?  Cheesy
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« Reply #27: September 11, 2007, 12:20:39 pm »

Not that I advocate McDonald's (fast food in general isn't good for you), but my animals have no problem eating a burger from there. and trust me, the scraps of food that I find in the back seat of my truck from my sloppy kid look anything but normal if I don't get them cleaned up quick enough.

Just reporting what I've seen. (I first saw the experiment about a week in, and it's at our covenstead, where we have regular meetings.)

Some of the stuff I've read suggests that a) heat plays a role in fast food palatability (i.e. it's more appealing warm: once it cools, not so much) and b) that of course, other factors might play a role if it's in a particular environment (depending on time of year, it can get very warm in a car, there may be liquid/plant material near it from muddy shoes or a sweating cup, etc.) which changes the situation.

But for "sitting in a normal house, on a corner of a back table, in non-extreme heat?" (they have AC, but it's turned on only when it's miserable out, so the house is averaging mid-70s in the summer) Still hasn't grown anything obviously bad or otherwise changed appearance. I'd be interested in anyone else's experience with this specific set-up. (She got the idea from a book, where the same experience was described: might have been _Don't Eat This Book_)

Now, granted, I suspect that a part of this is a high soy and other vegetable protein content, not just preservatives - but still, there are some issues with that, too.
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« Reply #28: September 11, 2007, 12:38:10 pm »

(She got the idea from a book, where the same experience was described: might have been _Don't Eat This Book_)
I've also seen a similar experiment on that movie "Super Size Me" where he left french fries from McDonald's out and french fries from a "mom and pop" type restaurant out for a time period.  The McDonald's fries did not change appearance but the "mom and pop" ones decomposed as expected.
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« Reply #29: September 11, 2007, 12:41:53 pm »

I've also seen a similar experiment on that movie "Super Size Me" where he left french fries from McDonald's out and french fries from a "mom and pop" type restaurant out for a time period.  The McDonald's fries did not change appearance but the "mom and pop" ones decomposed as expected.

I tired that experiment using homemade fries, and fries from various fast food places and the McDonald's fries molded right along with the rest. It then made me skeptical of the documentary.
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