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Author Topic: Ethics & The Use of Magic  (Read 18054 times)
Aisling
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« Topic Start: September 16, 2007, 01:24:26 pm »

The Hex thread touches on ethics and the use of magic... what's considered appropriate under what circumstances, what guidelines we as individuals use in choosing to use magic, and what limits we place on ourselves magically.   It seems to me the subject deserves its own thread, so here it is!

Let's look at this from the standpoint of teaching someone young and new to magic.
  • If you were the teacher, would you include ethics in your lessons? 
  • Do ethics even have a place in magical practice? 
  • What ethical principles, rules, and guidelines are important in magic?
  • What ideas are nice guidelines, but not really rules to live by, in your opinion?
  • What should be magically taboo, if anything? Are there circumstances when a normally taboo spell might be acceptable?
  • What words of wisdom would you give to a novice in helping them make decisions about what is ethical and appropriate?
  • Related but not directly about ethics, is there an appropriate escalation of action or spells when dealing with a problem?  Is there a specific sequence of steps that you take when confronted with a problem?
  • If you are young and new to magic, what questions or concerns do you have about ethics as they relate to magic use?


These are just a few questions to get everyone thinking.  Please add others to the thread as you think of them.


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« Reply #1: September 16, 2007, 01:43:10 pm »


    * If you were the teacher, would you include ethics in your lessons?

Yes, of course.
    * Do ethics even have a place in magical practice?

Ethics have a place in EVERY thing.
    * What ethical principles, rules, and guidelines are important in magic?
The same ones that are important in every other aspect of life.  Why would magic have special ethics?

    * What ideas are nice guidelines, but not really rules to live by, in your opinion?
I don't know, I have spent most of my life ignoring nice guidelines, apparently. 

    * What should be magically taboo, if anything? Are there circumstances when a normally taboo spell might be acceptable?
I don't believe in taboos in the normal form---not specific spells.  I believe in taboos in terms of my usual ethical standard: Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative.  "If what I am about to do is not what EVERY person SHOULD do, then I should not do it either---it is an immoral (unethical act)"  That is the fast, dirty paraphrase that rules my behavior--magical or not.  It does not always stop me, of course---but if I do what is vetoed by the answer to that question, there is no doubt that I have committed an immoral deed.  This is partially because Kantian ethics are famous for having some major holes in its fabric.  It is ok when deciding between a "good" thing and a "bad"....but leaves you swinging between two bad things.  The classic examples revolve around whether one lies (or kills, one assumes) (bad thing) to protect an innocent from death (likewise a bad thing).  Oh..and that "should" is not a "would"...it is to have the force of an unavoidable "duty". 

    * What words of wisdom would you give to a novice in helping them make decisions about what is ethical and appropriate?

Would you do this thing, publicly?  Would you do it in front of your best friends and those you love?  Would you advocate others doing as you do?  (Yeah, yeah...still Kantian)

    * Related but not directly about ethics, is there an appropriate escalation of action or spells when dealing with a problem?  Is there a specific sequence of steps that you take when confronted with a problem?

Yes, as with every other aspect of life.  First I talk about the issue.  Then I do mitigating, protective things.  If those are not sufficiently defensive, I do what I think of as "aggressive mirroring".....in which I attempt to throw back on the "aggressor" their very own behaviors AND I use what I call "truth will out" magic to reveal the perfidy of whomever I am acting against.
If none of those work, and the situation is dire enough, yes, I do step over the line into what could only be termed hostile action.  If elimination of a threat is the only way to end it, I see it as necessary as shooting a rabid dog that is attacking.  After all, to choke at stopping evil is to enable it, is it not?

    * If you are young and new to magic, what questions or concerns do you have about ethics as they relate to magic use?

I'm not.  And obviously, none.


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« Reply #2: September 16, 2007, 01:47:46 pm »

If you were the teacher, would you include ethics in your lessons?
Absolutely. I think it is important to take what you are doing into serious consideration. People need to consider all the possible ramifications of their acts as they can think of, and be sure that they would be willing to accept everything that might happen. (And I suppose you can't always know everything, and you must accept that something unexpected will occur as well.)

Quote
Do ethics even have a place in magical practice?
Some people may say that you should be allowed to do whatever you want, in all facets of life. However, it is my opinion that you should not intentionally harm (or even affect at all) anyone, simply out of respect for life and Earth. Why is it yours or anyone's place to control someone's life other than your own?

Quote
What ethical principles, rules, and guidelines are important in magic?
 
Only perform a spell when there is a genuine need. Without it, your work is likely to be less powerful and undoubtedly you will expend a lot of energy that is generally unnecessary. And I mentioned it above, but just to have respect for this life and assume all the responsibility of your actions.

Quote
What ideas are nice guidelines, but not really rules to live by, in your opinion?
You should be willing to live by the rules by which you govern your magick. 

Quote
What should be magically taboo, if anything? Are there circumstances when a normally taboo spell might be acceptable?
I think the obvious answer here is a love spell. Or any spell that directly seeks to control another person. How would you like it if someone did that to you?! lol. These spells are just flat out unnecessary. You don't need to worry about it. Will people do these spells? Yes. Do I personally find these unacceptable? Yeah.

Quote
What words of wisdom would you give to a novice in helping them make decisions about what is ethical and appropriate?
If a novice is not sure of what they are doing, don't do it. Sure as in the mechanics of the work and sure as in ethical uneasiness. And also to pay particular attention to one's way of wording things. Well, just to make sure that your intent is crystal clear. I find spells to generally be unnecessary  for survival(how else does the rest of the world get by?), so novices need to realize that they don't *have* to do magick to be part of a pagan spirituality.

Quote
Related but not directly about ethics, is there an appropriate escalation of action or spells when dealing with a problem?  Is there a specific sequence of steps that you take when confronted with a problem?
Probably the best thing to do is to do your best to prevent problems in the first place!
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« Reply #3: September 16, 2007, 01:49:04 pm »


As far as I'm concerned, magic falls into the exact same ethical framework as everything else you do.  It really kinda bugs me when magic falls into a *privileged* category.
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« Reply #4: September 16, 2007, 02:02:03 pm »

As far as I'm concerned, magic falls into the exact same ethical framework as everything else you do.  It really kinda bugs me when magic falls into a *privileged* category.

Agreed, ideally magically should be subject to the same ethical considerations as anything else, but not everyone thinks so, unfortunately.  I've known people who literally would not physically hurt any living creature by their own hand, but didn't think twice about casting binding and hexing spells.  That lack of logic makes my brain boil.   

My only hard, fast, unbreakable rule when it comes to magic is that my magical ethics need to be in line with the personal ethics that I apply to everything else.  Oaksworn put it very nicely in the Hexing thread: "If you wouldn't do it without magic then why would you think it would be ok to do it with magic?"
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« Reply #5: September 16, 2007, 02:06:39 pm »

    * If you are young and new to magic, what questions or concerns do you have about ethics as they relate to magic use?

I'm not.  And obviously, none.

 Cheesy Right there with you on that one! 
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« Reply #6: September 16, 2007, 02:45:20 pm »


My only ethical consideration for magic is that it should be ethical in the same way everything else in my life is. I have no separate code of ethics for magic; if I wouldn't do it  in mundane, everyday ways, I'm not going to do it magically either.

The basis for my ethics is personal responsibility. Am I willing to take the consequences of my actions? Is the cause greater than the consequence?
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« Reply #7: September 16, 2007, 03:17:55 pm »

As far as I'm concerned, magic falls into the exact same ethical framework as everything else you do.  It really kinda bugs me when magic falls into a *privileged* category.

*nods*  I said in the Hex thread that i don't tend to think of magic as a super-weapon of last resort; nothing wrong with people who *do* think that way, but I believe the idea of magic belonging to a privileged ethical category might be related to that "last resort" concept. 

My magical ethics are shaped by the fact that I don't tend to believe in a "law of return" or "karma," except in a very, very vague, abstract "what goes around comes around" sense.  Somebody on the old board -- Sunflower?  Aisling?  Moon Ivy? -- said something to the effect of "If I'm a jerk who goes around randomly cursing people and making a nuisance of myself, I don't expect the universe to send me rainbows and bunnies in return," which makes far more sense to me.  But as far as anything *remotely* resembling a one-to-one correlation between "magical action" and "'karmic' reaction," I've never witnessed it.

I don't tend to have an ethical problem with cursing people, if they were horrible enough that I'd be willing to make their lives hard in a mundane way, if I could.  Also, if I were to put this in "karmic" terms, I think establishing a pattern of "Hi, Universe!  I will gladly and uncomplainingly take any bullshit thrown at me, and won't do a thing to change it, because that would be *mean*!" is a lot more karmicly dangerous than cursing someone who needs it.  But then, I've never had any longings toward sainthood (martyred or otherwise), and tend to think of suffering as more "pain in the ass" than "ennobling."   Smiley

I practice folk magic, and the major ethos of folk magic is that it's the weapon of people (poor folks, women) who didn't have access to more mundane ways of getting what they want.  Hoodoo contains any number of spells designed to cause pain, suffering and death to enemies, and because it's not attached to a particular religious system, it's up to the individual practitioner to decide when the use of such spells is appropriate.  For me, I'm a big believer in situational ethics, and I'm also a big believer in not using a flamethrower to light a birthday candle, so. 

As for manipulative magic, it depends on the level of manipulation.  We manipulate people every single day -- hell, I'm teaching writing this semester, and part of that is showing students how to most effectively manipulate their audiences.  It's called "rhetoric."   Smiley  Persuading people is an art, and a noble one -- but it's still "manipulation."  And part of being a good persuader is recognizing when someone *really* doesn't want to do something, and backing off; if you go beyond that, it's coercion, and that's dodgy.  So, magically, I wouldn't do anything more manipulative than, say, what I at my most persuasive could talk someone into.  And as a Hermes follower, I can be pretty persuasive.   Smiley 

I'm also not  fan of doing stuff *to* other people when doing something on *myself* would be more effective and satisfying; juicing myself up magically, and then going out and seeing what happens, tends to work better, not least because I can predict the effects on myself much more easily than I can on somebody else.  Let's say I wanted to cast a love spell:  I wouldn't want to take the risk that the "target's" reaction to the spell would be turning into a psycho stalker or a whiny clinger.  If I do the spell on myself, i have a *much* better frame of reference for my own behavior.  If that makes sense.

My magical ethics are so situation-bound, and so closely tied to my own abilities and limits, that I'm not sure I could translate it for someone new.  What I would say, though, is to be pragmatic.  Have you sat back and actually thought about the situation, and determined the best course of action?  Is your magical response proportionate to the the situation (i.e., it's kind of dumb to cast a killing spell on someone who accidentally stepped on your foot at the grocery store)?  Are you taking appropriate mundane action as well?  Are you prepared to accept the consequences?  (Even though I don't believe in a law of return, guilt,  anxiety, and actually *getting* what you thought you wanted can be very crippling.)  I think this approach requires a *lot* more self-knowledge, because it doesn't have the safety net of formal religious guidance, the way, say Wiccan magical ethics do.  Not better or worse, just requiring different things.
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« Reply #8: September 16, 2007, 03:23:18 pm »

  Somebody on the old board -- Sunflower?  Aisling?  Moon Ivy? -- said something to the effect of "If I'm a jerk who goes around randomly cursing people and making a nuisance of myself, I don't expect the universe to send me rainbows and bunnies in return," which makes far more sense to me. 

 Cheesy That sounds like something I might say, but alas, I wasn't on the old board. However, I will be stealing it for future reference!
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« Reply #9: September 16, 2007, 03:47:08 pm »


Ditto everything Catja said. I am 100 % in agreement, and she said it so verymuch better than I could have!

But, in addition, as a Kemetic sort of  person, I do believe in ma'at. This is not the same as karma, but (UPG, YMMV) in my mindset, acting unfairly could unbalance ma'at. I can and do use magic, and in my mind, that is fair and allowable. Using magic to get revenge when the situation does not call for it might just unbalance ma'at. I don't expect to get whapped for it (I don't believe in karma or the law of returns), but as it is my job to uphold ma'at, it is not my place to unbalance the world just for my petty little whims. Now, as a Set kid, I can see the use for hexes and the like if called for. Absolutely. Just doing my part to keep the world a just place *insert devil emoticon here* I have the mindset that no one will step in and adjust the balance in the favor of right unless I'm willing and capable of doing so myself. I have to be willing and able to help myself, because, quoting big Red, "you are a big girl. Take care of it yourself." If something dreadfully wrong occurs, I can and will step up to my own defense magically, just as I would physically if absolutely needed. But there must be absolute need. And just being pissed at the world for not going in my favor doesn't count.   Tongue

I do believe in using magic, as it is a tool and a useful one. But, f'ex, if a customer has a bad day and takes it out on me, I would no more hex them for being cruel than I would hit them over the head with something hard (I may THINK about doing it, though  Tongue ). the use of magic is like the use of physical tools, and I like the way Catja puts it - I wouldn't use a flamethrower to light a candle. I tend to start small and work up. A great example of this is a woman at work who is being malicious and mean to me, and has started slandering me (both my personal life and my work ethic). I have exhausted the physical efforts to stop it (management, for the sake of "unity" doesn't want to hear it. She swears she hasn't said anything, although there is written proof otherwise). Now, I could hex her, but that makes me small and petty, and could well unbalance ma'at. After all, I would be doing harm to someone unnecessarily, which does not fix justice at all. It would be the proverbial flamethrower and the candle. So I have decided to create a small charm for ME, to repel slander and gossip. This does not directly affect her, but it does directly affect anything said about me (by anyone and not just her). That has so far fixed the situation. That was all that was needed.

As far as my ethics go, that would be the description of them. I go by the situation and the need, as my morals tend to flounder in the gray area. Would I hex someone? Absolutely. But I have not done it, which goes to show that I have never (even when physically threatened and stalked) found a need for something that strong. I am one of those people who doesn't color-code my magic. Magic is magic, and it serves a purpose. It is a tool. If I need a healing spell, I do one. If I need a protective spell, I do one. If I need a hex, I know them and can do them. My personal ethics tend to run in the "Harm none unless they harm you first" mindset.
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« Reply #10: September 16, 2007, 04:10:01 pm »

My personal ethics tend to run in the "Harm none unless they harm you first" mindset.

Laughing in appreciation because it sounds like something I'd say.  Of course I'm also fond of saying (heavily paraphased to make it PG-13) "I never start anything nasty, but I will gladly put a finish to it when someone else does."   Wink
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« Reply #11: September 16, 2007, 04:46:42 pm »

Ditto everything Catja said. I am 100 % in agreement, and she said it so verymuch better than I could have!

I'll second that Smiley

I'm pretty new to magic as far as practising it is concerned.  I think if I was happy to do it in a mundane way, and accept the consequences of those mundane methods too, then I would be happy to do it magically if the mundane methods were not available to me because of, for example, distance, or the lack of finances to move home, or the lack of access to physically bind somebody temporarily.  Ok, the last is a bizarre(ish) example, but I have someone in mind lol!

For me, I'm a big believer in situational ethics, and I'm also a big believer in not using a flamethrower to light a birthday candle, so.

The ethics of the situation will and do change with every situation, no matter how similar two situations are, they will always be different in some way and that has to be taken in to account.

I do my best to be positive (as I said in the hexing thread) as I think it's important to try to be that way, but it's not always possible, and as Catja says, I'm also not prepared to continually suffer something negative for the rest of my life should it be better suited that the negativity is returned to the person sending it, in one way or another. Whether that is having the negativity sent straight back, or manipulating the person to stop behaving in a negative manner would again depend on the situation.
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« Reply #12: September 16, 2007, 05:38:46 pm »

The Hex thread touches on ethics and the use of magic... what's considered appropriate under what circumstances, what guidelines we as individuals use in choosing to use magic, and what limits we place on ourselves magically.   It seems to me the subject deserves its own thread, so here it is!

Most of your questions are somewhat "meaningless" to me as I don't see any difference in the ethics of doing something based on how you do it. The answer to the question "Is it ethical to do X?" is the same to me no matter how you choose to do X -- mundanely, magically, psychically, by prayer to a deity to do it, or whatever. There is no separate "magical ethics" in my worldview.
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« Reply #13: September 16, 2007, 05:49:47 pm »



Thanks, Lily and Nemesisfirestorm!

I've thought of something else.  I tend to think of aggressive magic in terms of physical activity, and judge whether I'd do a magic spell based on whether I'd do an equivalent physical action.  Like, would I slap the face of someone spreading nasty rumors about me, if given the opportunity?  Hell yes!  In that case, I might use a targeted "stop gossip" spell, with nastiness graded to the nastiness of the rumors, and how hard I'd slap.  *g*  Would I take a baseball bat to the head of someone who broke into my house?  Yes!  So the house protection spell I'm working on now is the magical equivalent of "baseball bat to the head" and then some -- we were robbed last year, and I have *lots* of rage.  So, baseball bat to the head, back, and testicles.   Cheesy 

My two examples here are, interestingly enough, cases where magic is more appropriate than the comparable physical actions.   Rumormongers are sneaky by definition, and you often won't have the opportunity to directly confront them; magical action, even aggressive action, is much more subtle.  I lack the physical strength and skill to rely upon my ability to cause serious physical damage to an intruder, so a magical equivalent will help me sleep better at night.   
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« Reply #14: September 16, 2007, 06:06:22 pm »

I've thought of something else.  I tend to think of aggressive magic in terms of physical activity, and judge whether I'd do a magic spell based on whether I'd do an equivalent physical action.  Like, would I slap the face of someone spreading nasty rumors about me, if given the opportunity?  Hell yes!

Yes, that's along the lines of what I meant re binding.  If I could physically get to and tie up and gag this person, would I?  Yes, for certain times, certainly.  I can't do that physically, but if I can magically bind him from maliciousness, then I will.

He needs to show his true self, I can't physically make that happen, without possibly risking my own safety, so to do it magically is better (for me at least).

I tend to draw my lines like this:  do I want him dead?  Quite frankly yes, it would make my life easier.  Do I think he ought to be dead?  Possibly not.  It would upset people who are innocent of everything, therefore I draw the line at that.  Do I want to waste my energy thinking nasty things like that, when it's not going to happen?  No, I don't.  So what do I think is appropriate and acceptable?  Then I can work from there.  Others in similar situations would quite probably think very differently based on their own feelings, involvement and the other person.

Doesn't stop the temptation of the thought though Wink
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